Howard confused about teaching History - Wants to teach Fai

dechucka · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 9

wrote in message @4ax.com...
>
> Your point is?

who knows you snipped his post

Archived from group: aus>politics

Neville Duguid · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 16

Swampfox wrote:

> Now we must begin the quest to eradicate bias from our society, and it's we
> who must do it because no-one takes any notice whatsoever of the UN.

Only problem - it's against the law to put fasgnadh through an atomiser
Wink

Seppo Renfors · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 3

Addinall wrote:
>
[..]
>
> I got bagged for posting this a few years ago...
>
> A Brief History of Australia - Mark Addinall
>
> The concept that multicultural Australia as a 'new' thing
> is beyond me. All the recorded history of this place describes
> a multicultural society.
>
> The Australian aboriginals and the Baiina. We are not sure
> where the Baiina came from, probably Malaysia. They stayed
> in Arnhem land for some time (unsure, possibly 50 years),
> built villages of stone houses, lived with and worked with
> the local people, planted rice paddies. No one knows
> exactly why they left, a mystery.

Whereabouts are these villages etc you mention?

> Then came the Macassans. A very (mostly) happy implentation
> of multicultural behavior based on trade and co-operation.
> The Macassans live and worked in Australia. This relationship lasted
> some 200 years until the British finally disallowed them from
> entering Australia.
>
> The Chinese may have visited around 1406 but the records are sketchy.

It is said a number of the boats used by the Macassans were Chinese
owned. The Trepang harvested by the Macassans were exported to China
and was a high priced aphrodisiac for the wealthy in China. If any
Chinese actually came is less certain - however they must have had
knowledge of Australia existing.

> The Spanish bobbed around from 1522 through to 1615.

It was Bartholomew Diaz (or Bartolomeu Dias), a Portuguese explorer is
the 'modern' person attributed to have "discovered" Cape of Good Hope
in 1488 (Phoenicians and others had already done the long before then,
Arabs traded around the coast of Africa at that time too). Vasco da
Gama, another Portuguese pioneered the route via Cape of Good Hope to
India in 1497.

They were more likely Portuguese who steered due East after rounding
Cape of Good Hope (southern tip of Africa) then followed North along
the WA coast to the "spice Islands". The first known European person
to set foot on Australian continent was Dutchman, Willem Janz of the
Duyfken who landed near the present site of Weipa, in the Gulf of
Carpentaria in Jan 31, 1606.

> It always makes
> me laugh to deny multiculturalism for 'our' Australia. After all it
> was Quiros who named the place Austrialia del Espiritu Santo to honour
> the King of Spain, Phillip III of the House of Austria. And we still
> have holidays in the Torres straight do we not?

I think you need to shift that idea many millennia back in time. This
nation was "multicultural" well before any other people than
Aborigines are known to have visited/stayed in Australia. The various
tribes of aborigines had their own languages, their own cultures and
their own religions. The use of various weapons, tools, and techniques
varied enormously around the nation.

The didgeridoo was a North Australian item originally. Bows and
arrows were used in the extreme north, but nowhere else in Australia.
Ochre was traded long distances as were certain stone tools. So it is
wrong to attribute "multiculturalism" to a "white" society as some
kind of "invention" when it is a natural occurrence the world over,
from the present to times dating back to the origin of Man.

[..]
>
> Then in 1768 a bloke by the name of James Cook was tasked with
> the orders to steal Australia from the Spanish.

No. not really. He was sent out in 1768 to Tahiti, taking a group of
scientists to make an observation of Venus transiting across the sun.
He landed in Poverty Bay, NZ 1769 and claimed it for King George III.
He then explored and mapped the East coast of Australia. On April
29th, 1770 Cook landed in Botany Bay proclaiming the coastline a
British possession. The first European known to be buried on Australia
soil was on May 1st, 1770. Forby Sutherland was interred near Botany
Bay on that day.

The Spanish had no interest in Australia. The Spanish had interests
elsewhere - specially in the Americas. On March 5th, 1766 the Spanish
took possession of New Orleans from the French. The Portuguese, Dutch
and British had interests in India, and the "Spice Islands" North of
Australia. The British also had interest in China.

[..]

--
SIR - Philosopher unauthorised
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is
misled.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Addinall · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 5

Seppo Renfors wrote:

> Addinall wrote:
> >
> [..]
> >
> > I got bagged for posting this a few years ago...
> >
> > A Brief History of Australia - Mark Addinall
> >
> > The concept that multicultural Australia as a 'new' thing
> > is beyond me. All the recorded history of this place describes
> > a multicultural society.
> >
> > The Australian aboriginals and the Baiina. We are not sure
> > where the Baiina came from, probably Malaysia. They stayed
> > in Arnhem land for some time (unsure, possibly 50 years),
> > built villages of stone houses, lived with and worked with
> > the local people, planted rice paddies. No one knows
> > exactly why they left, a mystery.
>
> Whereabouts are these villages etc you mention?

NE Arnhem land. Remnants can still be seen (if you have good eyes Wink

around Ramininging through Nhulumby.

>
> > Then came the Macassans. A very (mostly) happy implentation
> > of multicultural behavior based on trade and co-operation.
> > The Macassans live and worked in Australia. This relationship lasted
> > some 200 years until the British finally disallowed them from
> > entering Australia.
> >
> > The Chinese may have visited around 1406 but the records are sketchy.
>
> It is said a number of the boats used by the Macassans were Chinese
> owned. The Trepang harvested by the Macassans were exported to China
> and was a high priced aphrodisiac for the wealthy in China. If any
> Chinese actually came is less certain - however they must have had
> knowledge of Australia existing.

Without doubt they knew we (in the geological term) existed.

>
> > The Spanish bobbed around from 1522 through to 1615.
>
> It was Bartholomew Diaz (or Bartolomeu Dias), a Portuguese explorer is
> the 'modern' person attributed to have "discovered" Cape of Good Hope
> in 1488 (Phoenicians and others had already done the long before then,
> Arabs traded around the coast of Africa at that time too). Vasco da
> Gama, another Portuguese pioneered the route via Cape of Good Hope to
> India in 1497.
>
> They were more likely Portuguese who steered due East after rounding
> Cape of Good Hope (southern tip of Africa) then followed North along
> the WA coast to the "spice Islands". The first known European person
> to set foot on Australian continent was Dutchman, Willem Janz of the
> Duyfken who landed near the present site of Weipa, in the Gulf of
> Carpentaria in Jan 31, 1606.
>
> > It always makes
> > me laugh to deny multiculturalism for 'our' Australia. After all it
> > was Quiros who named the place Austrialia del Espiritu Santo to honour
> > the King of Spain, Phillip III of the House of Austria. And we still
> > have holidays in the Torres straight do we not?
>
> I think you need to shift that idea many millennia back in time. This
> nation was "multicultural" well before any other people than
> Aborigines are known to have visited/stayed in Australia. The various
> tribes of aborigines had their own languages, their own cultures and
> their own religions. The use of various weapons, tools, and techniques
> varied enormously around the nation.
>
> The didgeridoo was a North Australian item originally. Bows and
> arrows were used in the extreme north, but nowhere else in Australia.
> Ochre was traded long distances as were certain stone tools. So it is
> wrong to attribute "multiculturalism" to a "white" society as some
> kind of "invention" when it is a natural occurrence the world over,
> from the present to times dating back to the origin of Man.
>
> [..]
> >
> > Then in 1768 a bloke by the name of James Cook was tasked with
> > the orders to steal Australia from the Spanish.
>
> No. not really. He was sent out in 1768 to Tahiti, taking a group of
> scientists to make an observation of Venus transiting across the sun.
> He landed in Poverty Bay, NZ 1769 and claimed it for King George III.
> He then explored and mapped the East coast of Australia. On April
> 29th, 1770 Cook landed in Botany Bay proclaiming the coastline a
> British possession. The first European known to be buried on Australia
> soil was on May 1st, 1770. Forby Sutherland was interred near Botany
> Bay on that day.
>
> The Spanish had no interest in Australia.

Rubbish! Grab a book!

Mark Addinall.

> The Spanish had interests
> elsewhere - specially in the Americas. On March 5th, 1766 the Spanish
> took possession of New Orleans from the French. The Portuguese, Dutch
> and British had interests in India, and the "Spice Islands" North of
> Australia. The British also had interest in China.
>
> [..]
>
> --
> SIR - Philosopher unauthorised
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is
> misled.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------

Addinall · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 5

R M O'Donnell wrote:

> "Addinall" wrote in message
> @z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > >R M O'Donnell wrote:
> >
> >
> > I am glad some enjoyment was found from one of my musings/compilations.
> >
> >>
> >> You me we tupella yakai longa usenet, little bits byen bye.
> >
> > Ah. You me tupella, praps allpella tok pisin? Makim tru.
> > Beta onepella twopella tok pik pik lontime Canberra?
> >
> No more tok pisin. Speak that one Murralungitch, yuai ?

New one on me mate. Where is that from?

Mark Addinall.

>
> RM O'Donnell

Swampfox · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 9

"R M O'Donnell" wrote in message $V7.181482@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "Swampfox" wrote in message
>>
>> "R M O'Donnell" <
>>>
> The French must be mighty pissed though.> There's much
>>> more room here than Muroroa, and all you can eat Uranium.>Most of the
>>> French I have known do like to get mighty pissed occaisionally.Normally
>>> it is more to celebrate their successes rather than failures.Are you
>>> sure that you know what you are talking about, Swampy ?
>>>
>>
>> Not absolutely sure, no.
>> But who can ever be sure?
>
> We will have to get pissed together sometime.
>
> Cheers,
>
> R M O'Donnell

I don't drink R M.
But thanks for the offer.

Swampfox · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 9

"Don H" wrote in message
news:%GsDf.231529$V7.225611@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> "Swampfox" wrote in message
> $0$11102$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>>
>> "Don H" wrote in message
>> $V7.90012@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> > "Swampfox" wrote in message
>> > $0$18200$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>> >>
>> >> "Don H" wrote in message
>> >> $V7.209320@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> >> > "fasgnadh" wrote in message
>> >> > $0$23753$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The Prime Minister's push to overhaul the teaching of history,
>> >> >> is making him look silly as the Commonwealth is already
>> >> >> spending millions of dollars to teach what he's complaining
>> >> >> is not taught! B^D
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "Australia Day: PM wants new history"
>> >> >> - The Herald Sun 26/1/2006
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In 1984 they rewrote New History every day!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Howard is always trying to rewrite history to
>> >> >> suit his White Eyepatch view, but this latest
>> >> >> outburst show he is either out of touch or
>> >> >> is doing a little of the Dog Whistling he is
>> >> >> famous for;
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "Mr Howard condemned teachers yesterday for focusing
>> >> >> on abstract themes at the expense of the timeline of
>> >> >> history.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "Too often, it is taught without any sense of structured
>> >> >> narrative, replaced by a fragmented stew of themes
>> >> >> and issues," he said.
>> >> >> ...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Mr Howard said it was ridiculous to think history could
>> >> >> be taught without students knowing when the Battle of
>> >> >> Hastings was fought (1066) or when Captain Cook arrived
>> >> >> in Australia (1770)."
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The PM's emphassis on Date's and Timelines seems odd,
>> >> >> as these certainly are taught already.. has he had a look
>> >> >> at the VCE History Exam? B^p
>> >> >>
>> >> >> BTW: The Battle of Hastings is ENGLISH History, not Australian
>> >> >> History! BD
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What's more, his concern that students are taught
>> >> >> Themes, such as Australians at War , and issues,
>> >> >> such as Anzac Day, bring those dates ALIVE for young
>> >> >> students.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "Kate Cameron, the immediate past national president of the History
>> >> >> Teachers' Association, says Mr Howard of all people should know the
>> >> >> Commonwealth has invested millions of dollars into the teaching of
>> >> > history.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> She says the prime minister will soon realise his claims that young
>> >> >> people do not have a full understanding of Australian history are
>> >> > unfounded.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "Well, I don't know what he would base that assertion upon - he
>> >> >> just
>> >> >> said it was obvious to him but he didn't explain what his sources
> were
>> >> >> about how obvious it was," Ms Cameron told ABC Radio.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "I think he's going to be extremely embarrassed when he realises
> that
>> >> >> his own government has poured millions of dollars into providing
>> >> >> wonderful teaching resources and professional development
>> >> >> opportunities
>> >> >> ... to promote the teaching of Australian history."
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Whats more, it is through looking at Gallipoli, and Kokoda
>> >> >> that Australian Values such as mateship and self sacrifice
>> >> >> are explored!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The PM is also contradicting himself because elsewhere he
> claims
>> >> >> teaching those values IS important.. (Is he getting Past It?)!
>> > B^p
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "At the National Press Club in Canberra today, John Howard talked
>> >> >> about
>> >> >> the balance between maintaining Australian values, and allowing
>> > sections
>> >> >> of the community to express their culture and beliefs."
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So how do we teach what those Australian values are unless
>> >> >> we teach the about Simpson, and the Anzac tradition,
>> >> >> themes of Mateship and loyalty.. rather than the Date
>> >> >> which King Fauntleroy ascended to the British throne!?
>> >> >> (After all, they are all pretenders after the French
>> >> >> Bastard ascended the throne! B^0
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It also sounds as if The PM wants to teach beliefs, HIS
> beliefs,
>> >> >> rather than teaching facts and letting students decide for
>> >> >> themselves what they believe in.... he sounds more like a
>> >> >> Cardinal discussin RE classes, or a Mullah in a Madrassa,
>> >> >> than the PM of a secular education system;
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "We should have faith in what we have achieved and what we have
>> > become,"
>> >> >> he said.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "The Howard vision for teaching would cover
>> >> >> indigenous history, the influence of the West
>> >> >> and the stories of nations who fed European settlement."
>> >> >>
>> >> >> But thats simply a strategy for excluding some immigrants
>> >> >> in favour of the PM's ethnic group!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> His prescription, Dates and Timelines, would mean NOTHING
>> >> >> would be taught in the proposed 'indigenous history' other
>> >> >> than some distant arrival date and White Settlement.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Indigenous history is not about dates and timelines, so his
>> >> >> call to have more of 1066 and All That, and effectively
>> >> >> abolish indigenous history about events, values and meaning.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> And 'the stories of Nations who fed European settlement'
>> >> >> means your kids learn about Serbs and Croats, but not
>> >> >> about the Chinese who arrived much earlier, or the Vietnamese,
>> >> >> whose story is interwoven with our own! B^p
>> >> >>
>> >> >> As usual, it appears as if he has his usual agenda, and what
>> >> >> a cheap ploy to fire his shots in the Culture Wars on Australia
>> >> >> Day! B^p
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The ALP simply pointed out the Federal governments role in
>> >> >> educating History teachers "after an inquiry five years
>> >> >> ago identified the need to improve preparation of university
>> >> >> history teachers."
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "More than five years later John Howard is speaking about the same
>> >> >> problems," Ms Macklin said. "If he is so concerned about history
>> >> >> teaching he should ask (former education minister) Brendan Nelson
> what
>> >> >> he has been doing."
>> >> >>
>> >> >> State Education ministers just seem puzzled what the PM was
>> >> >> raving about, as Dates, timelines and Chronology are the
>> >> >> essence of history traching.. but so is understanding what
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> events MEANT, and how values developed!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "Australia's evolution as a nation and its development is
>> >> >> a critical part of the curriculum taught in Victorian schools,"
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Howard, stuck in the 1950's is out of touch and out of DATE! B^)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "There is a fundamental distinction between
>> >> >> multicultural and Multiculturalism, which racists
>> >> >> constantly and deliberately confuse.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> A society is multicultural if it has more than one
>> >> >> culture being practised within that society.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 'Multicultural - A society which embraces a number
>> >> >> of minority cultures' - Macquarie Dictionary
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Multiculturalism is two things, the -ISM indicates that it
>> >> >> is a set of beliefs or ideas about multiculture,
>> >> >> ie a recognition of multicultural REALITY, an acceptance of it,
>> >> >> a celebration of it.
>> >> >> But it is ALSO a set of government policies to
>> >> >> formalize that recognition, acceptance and celebration!
>> >> >> Thus the Howard government has a Department which documents
>> >> >> the positive economic social and foreign policy benefits from
>> >> >> having a successful, open, democratic multicultural society."
>> >> >>
>> >> >> - fasgnadh
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "When Fasnag talks multiculturalism -> people living in Australia
> have
>> >> >> come from different cultures, and live different lives that could
>> >> >> be
>> >> >> categorised into groups if you chose to do so.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> When I talk multiculturalism -> the formal policy at a governmental
>> >> >> level"
>> >> >>
>> >> >> - Rev. Headjob, liar and thief
>> >> >> demonstrating the deliberate confusion.
>> >> >> Message-ID:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ------------
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The Official [Est. June 2000] aus.culture.true-blue FAQ ;
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://geocities.com/fairdinkum_trueblue/faq.html
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The true-blue Homestead;
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://geocities.com/fairdinkum_trueblue/
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The true-blue Hall Of Fame;
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://www.geocities.com/trueblue_hall_of_fame/index.html
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The Tuckerbox;
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://www.geocities.com/true_blue_tucker_box/index.html
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> -----------
>> >> > # Is history only a matter of opinion? or is it factual?
>> >> > There can be many selective or interpretative views of history, but
>> >> > only
>> >> > one
>> >> > set of facts actually match the events. It is the determining of
> what
>> >> > happened which can be a problem, but it is possible.
>> >> > The Objective view of History contrasts with the Subjective, which
>> > claims
>> >> > that all is subjective and relative. Did The Holocaust happen?
> There
>> > can
>> >> > only be one answer, according to the objective viewpoint - either it
>> > did,
>> >> > or
>> >> > it didn't.
>> >> > Then there is the Evaluation of History; which is not the same as
>> >> > being
>> >> > Subjective, but does involve such element. Having determined the
>> >> > Facts,
>> >> > what Value do we put on them? Was White Settlement of Australia a
> good
>> > or
>> >> > bad thing? This can be assessed in various ways - but the facts can
> be
>> >> > taught, while evaluation can be left to the individual to determine.
>> >> > Same with teaching Science, whose facts are more easily determined
>> >> > than
>> >> > History. True, scientists in the past had their view of empirical
> data
>> >> > coloured by their religious or other viewpoint, but this doesn't
>> >> > mean
>> > that
>> >> > the science itself is subjective or relative - though we must make
>> >> > allowance
>> >> > for historical context.
>> >> > Facts are facts, and we must face them. Let's clarify the issues
>> >> > involved. Words such as post-modernism, outcomes-based education,
> and
>> >> > culturally-determined, might sound impressive - but are they merely
>> >> > intellectual garbage?
>> >> > Thern there's Futurology, the most important science of the modern
>> >> > age.
>> >> > Is Global Warming occurring, and is it part of a natural cycle, or
>> >> > is
>> >> > it
>> >> > man-made? Again, facts are needed: meteorological data can
>> >> > determine
>> >> > if
>> >> > recent events are unique or part of a recurring pattern. Why should
>> > such
>> >> > pattern recur at a time when humans are at a peak of their
>> >> > technological
>> >> > and
>> >> > exploitative power? And how can we determine what is really
> natural -
>> >> > unless we first eliminate the Human Factor? Don't bother to try?
>> >> > Or
>> > wait
>> >> > until it may be too late to do so? Again what is Objective, as
>> >> > compared
>> >> > with Subjective, and how to distinguish one from the other?
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> But why did The Holocaust happen, what were it's effects, will it
> happen
>> >> again?
>> >> If the fact of it's existence is established beyond doubt then these
>> >> questions are the hardest to answer, and shouldn't be left to the
>> > individual
>> >> to evaluate, at least not if we want students to be informed and
>> >> indeed
>> >> taught.
>> >> The interpretation and evaluation of historical events is best done by
>> > those
>> >> with a detailed knowledge and background in the subject, ie,
> historians,
>> > and
>> >> while their asssessments will always be subjective we must of
>> >> necessity
>> > rely
>> >> on their judgement to educate our students.
>> >> There has been a trend towards trivialising academics in recent times
> and
>> >> the now ubiquitous term PC has done little to further their cause but
>> > surely
>> >> these same academics that we seem ready to discount and deride are by
> far
>> >> the best qualified to educate and inform.
>> >>
>> > # Once the fact of the Holocaust is established, then causal factors
> which
>> > led to it can also be determined; these too are facts, or should be.
>> > None of this need involve evaluation by third parties, some of whom
> may
>> > have particular (if unannounced) agendas.
>> > I'm all for a variety of viewpoints being discussed, but against the
>> > imposition of any one - letting any student come to his/her own
>> > conclusion,
>> > provided it can be justified.
>> > History can be at its most distorted within any Religion, as it is
> here
>> > where emotions and special pleading occur. The promoters and adherents
> of
>> > a
>> > religion have a vested interest in a particular view of history, and
>> > anything which conflicts with it tends to be suppressed, explained
>> > away,
>> > or
>> > distorted to fit. Which is why the Jews can make much of the
>> > Holocaust,
>> > while, eg., Iran can say it never happened.
>> > When I was at school, the exploration of Australia by white settlers
> was
>> > part of our history lesson; the facts of Sturt, Eyre, Burke and Wills,
>> > etc,
>> > and the routes they took, were detailed. None of this necessarily
>> > involved
>> > any praise or condemnation - it just happened. Likewise, some of the
>> > beliefs and practices of our Aborigines were mentioned. Thus can
> history
>> > be
>> > taught, factually, and without any jingoism on the one hand, nor "black
>> > armband" PC on the other.
>> > History is, or should be, the recording of facts - of what actually
>> > occurred at any particular time, as accurately as possible. If such
> past
>> > events are supported by evidence, then refutation and distortion are
> less
>> > likely. A Protestant view is as distorted as a Catholic view; but if
> the
>> > truth is told, then neither side can claim moral superiority, as there
> is
>> > good and bad in all of us. Same with Moslem and Jew.
>> > Any historian who sets out with the aim of presenting a one-sided view
> is
>> > a traitor to his/her profession. Seek the truth, or leave it alone.
>>
>> I couldn't agree more.
>> But in this case we are talking about the teaching of history in
> Australian
>> schools so we aren't necessarily dealing with distortions resulting from
>> religious views although in the case of some schools this may be true.
>> I have difficulty when politics interferes in the process as I believe
> this
>> can lead to greater distortions than the particular bias of a teacher,
> which
>> is bound to occur.
>> The terms PC and black armband are red herrings introduced into the
>> debate
>> so as to slant it in a particular way to suit a prevailing mood.
>> Surely a black armband is appropriate when reviewing some of the least
>> savoury parts of our history but in the current climate the term is used
> as
>> a justification to either ignore or downplay these events.
>> The teaching of history in our schools should be left to qualified
>> professionals and politicians should get out of the way.
>> Would you take a $400,000 Ferrari to a plumber for repairs?
>> Of course not, so why allow politicians to decide how and what your
> children
>> will be taught.
>>
> # It was control by the Nazi State over indoctrination of children (who
> would then inform on their parents) which led the UN to decree in its
> Human
> Rights Declaration that - "Parents have a prior right to choose the kind
> of
> education that shall be given to their children" (Article 26:3). This
> overlooks the fact that, in many cases, the parents have themselves been
> indoctrinated, so it comes as no surprise when, eg., Catholic parents
> choose
> a Catholic school for their children. The recent "christening" of the
> newborn prince of Denmark is seen as not only natural, but inevitable -
> the
> child has no say in the matter.
> The supreme right of "qualified professionals" in the teaching realm - is
> this the ultimate in objective instruction of the young? I don't think
> so,
> not in an age of Internet searches, self-learners, and do-it-yourself
> instruction kits. Teachers can be useful, but keep a wary eye on them,
> all
> the same.
> No, I'd upgrade the aforesaid UN Declaration to recognise the Right of
> the
> Child not to be indoctrinated by anyone - "Every child has the right to an
> education free of indoctrination and bias; instead, based on objective
> fact,
> insofar as this is possible".
> As to how this is achieved; ah, there's the problem.

Noble sentiments Don.
Now we must begin the quest to eradicate bias from our society, and it's we
who must do it because no-one takes any notice whatsoever of the UN.

fasgnadh · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 13

Neville Duguid wrote:

> Swampfox wrote:
>
>
>> no-one takes any notice whatsoever of the UN.
>

Especially Saddams Bagman, when the UN warns his government
of Bribes in the Food for oil scam. Approved by DFAT!

Subject: Wheatgate Widens -Inquiry zooms in on Howard government! 8^o
Re: "Keep Me Informed"!-Saddam's Bagman told the Australian Wheat Board
Re: AWB Knew Saddam Got the Cash, approved by Downer and Howard!!!! 8^o
Re: "Australia, Iraq wheat trade at risk"!!
was Re: AWB insiders allege corruption in $300m payment to Saddam
Hussein from HOWARD'S treasury! 8^o
Re: Howard's Wheat board face prison over kickbacks to Saddam Hussein
Message-ID:

>
> Only problem - it's against the law

The sooner they are charged the better for the nation

--

"There is a fundamental distinction between
multicultural and Multiculturalism, which racists
constantly and deliberately confuse.

A society is multicultural if it has more than one
culture being practised within that society.

'Multicultural - A society which embraces a number
of minority cultures' - Macquarie Dictionary

Multiculturalism is two things, the -ISM indicates that it
is a set of beliefs or ideas about multiculture,
ie a recognition of multicultural REALITY, an acceptance of it,
a celebration of it.
But it is ALSO a set of government policies to
formalize that recognition, acceptance and celebration!
Thus the Howard government has a Department which documents
the positive economic social and foreign policy benefits from
having a successful, open, democratic multicultural society."

- fasgnadh

"When Fasnag talks multiculturalism -> people living in Australia have
come from different cultures, and live different lives that could be
categorised into groups if you chose to do so.

When I talk multiculturalism -> the formal policy at a governmental
level"

- Rev. Headjob, liar and thief
demonstrating the deliberate confusion.
Message-ID:

------------

The Official [Est. June 2000] aus.culture.true-blue FAQ ;

http://geocities.com/fairdinkum_trueblue/faq.html

The true-blue Homestead;

http://geocities.com/fairdinkum_trueblue/

The true-blue Hall Of Fame;

http://www.geocities.com/trueblue_hall_of_fame/index.html

The Tuckerbox;

http://www.geocities.com/true_blue_tucker_box/index.html

-----------

Seppo Renfors · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 3

Addinall wrote:
>
> Seppo Renfors wrote:
>
> > Addinall wrote:
> > >
> > [..]
> > >
> > > I got bagged for posting this a few years ago...
> > >
> > > A Brief History of Australia - Mark Addinall
> > >
> > > The concept that multicultural Australia as a 'new' thing
> > > is beyond me. All the recorded history of this place describes
> > > a multicultural society.
> > >
> > > The Australian aboriginals and the Baiina. We are not sure
> > > where the Baiina came from, probably Malaysia. They stayed
> > > in Arnhem land for some time (unsure, possibly 50 years),
> > > built villages of stone houses, lived with and worked with
> > > the local people, planted rice paddies. No one knows
> > > exactly why they left, a mystery.
> >
> > Whereabouts are these villages etc you mention?
>
> NE Arnhem land. Remnants can still be seen (if you have good eyes Wink

> around Ramininging through Nhulumby.

Thanks fo that.
>
> >
> > > Then came the Macassans. A very (mostly) happy implentation
> > > of multicultural behavior based on trade and co-operation.
> > > The Macassans live and worked in Australia. This relationship lasted
> > > some 200 years until the British finally disallowed them from
> > > entering Australia.
> > >
> > > The Chinese may have visited around 1406 but the records are sketchy.
> >
> > It is said a number of the boats used by the Macassans were Chinese
> > owned. The Trepang harvested by the Macassans were exported to China
> > and was a high priced aphrodisiac for the wealthy in China. If any
> > Chinese actually came is less certain - however they must have had
> > knowledge of Australia existing.
>
> Without doubt they knew we (in the geological term) existed.
>
> >
> > > The Spanish bobbed around from 1522 through to 1615.
> >
> > It was Bartholomew Diaz (or Bartolomeu Dias), a Portuguese explorer is
> > the 'modern' person attributed to have "discovered" Cape of Good Hope
> > in 1488 (Phoenicians and others had already done the long before then,
> > Arabs traded around the coast of Africa at that time too). Vasco da
> > Gama, another Portuguese pioneered the route via Cape of Good Hope to
> > India in 1497.
> >
> > They were more likely Portuguese who steered due East after rounding
> > Cape of Good Hope (southern tip of Africa) then followed North along
> > the WA coast to the "spice Islands". The first known European person
> > to set foot on Australian continent was Dutchman, Willem Janz of the
> > Duyfken who landed near the present site of Weipa, in the Gulf of
> > Carpentaria in Jan 31, 1606.
> >
> > > It always makes
> > > me laugh to deny multiculturalism for 'our' Australia. After all it
> > > was Quiros who named the place Austrialia del Espiritu Santo to honour
> > > the King of Spain, Phillip III of the House of Austria. And we still
> > > have holidays in the Torres straight do we not?
> >
> > I think you need to shift that idea many millennia back in time. This
> > nation was "multicultural" well before any other people than
> > Aborigines are known to have visited/stayed in Australia. The various
> > tribes of aborigines had their own languages, their own cultures and
> > their own religions. The use of various weapons, tools, and techniques
> > varied enormously around the nation.
> >
> > The didgeridoo was a North Australian item originally. Bows and
> > arrows were used in the extreme north, but nowhere else in Australia.
> > Ochre was traded long distances as were certain stone tools. So it is
> > wrong to attribute "multiculturalism" to a "white" society as some
> > kind of "invention" when it is a natural occurrence the world over,
> > from the present to times dating back to the origin of Man.
> >
> > [..]
> > >
> > > Then in 1768 a bloke by the name of James Cook was tasked with
> > > the orders to steal Australia from the Spanish.
> >
> > No. not really. He was sent out in 1768 to Tahiti, taking a group of
> > scientists to make an observation of Venus transiting across the sun.
> > He landed in Poverty Bay, NZ 1769 and claimed it for King George III.
> > He then explored and mapped the East coast of Australia. On April
> > 29th, 1770 Cook landed in Botany Bay proclaiming the coastline a
> > British possession. The first European known to be buried on Australia
> > soil was on May 1st, 1770. Forby Sutherland was interred near Botany
> > Bay on that day.
> >
> > The Spanish had no interest in Australia.
>
> Rubbish! Grab a book!
>
> Mark Addinall.

Not "rubbish" at all. I don't know what "book" you might refer to, but
here is a source (not the best, but it is on-line...) outlining their
interests:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Empire

I note Australia is not part of it - nor do I know of any Spaniards
having made eyes at this continent either. The Spaniard's main non
European interests were the Americas. The Dutch had declared the top
end of Australia as "unfit for human habitation" - they didn't see
anything worthwhile to trade for or to exploit, not even as a source
for slaves.

I note that no sightings or landings predating Cook are recorded for
any Spanish ship, navigator or captain that I have been able to find.

> > The Spanish had interests
> > elsewhere - specially in the Americas. On March 5th, 1766 the Spanish
> > took possession of New Orleans from the French. The Portuguese, Dutch
> > and British had interests in India, and the "Spice Islands" North of
> > Australia. The British also had interest in China.

--
SIR - Philosopher unauthorised
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is
misled.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

R M O'Donnell · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 6

"Addinall" wrote in message @g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> R M O'Donnell wrote:
>
>> "Addinall" wrote in message
>> @z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > >R M O'Donnell wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > I am glad some enjoyment was found from one of my musings/compilations.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> You me we tupella yakai longa usenet, little bits byen bye.
>> >
>> > Ah. You me tupella, praps allpella tok pisin? Makim tru.
>> > Beta onepella twopella tok pik pik lontime Canberra?
>> >
>> No more tok pisin. Speak that one Murralungitch, yuai ?
>
> New one on me mate. Where is that from?
>
> Mark Addinall.

Australia

>> RM O'Donnell
>

R M O'Donnell · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 6

"fasgnadh" wrote in message $0$19685$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
> Swampfox wrote:
>
>> "R M O'Donnell" wrote in message

>>
>>>"Swampfox" wrote in message
>>>
>>>>"R M O'Donnell" <
>>>>
>>>The French must be mighty pissed though.> There's much
>>>
>>>>>more room here than Muroroa, and all you can eat Uranium.

>>>Most of the
>>>>>French I have known do like to get mighty pissed occaisionally.Normally
>>>>>it is more to celebrate their successes rather than failures.Are you
>>>>>sure that you know what you are talking about, Swampy ?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Not absolutely sure, no.
>>>>But who can ever be sure?
>>>
>>>We will have to get pissed together sometime.
>>>
>>>Cheers,
>>>
>>>R M O'Donnell
>>
>>
>> I don't drink R M.
>
> According to Dave Moss and Racist McDonnel, if he drinks
> and you don't observe his culture by not drinking,
> you have no credibility, and have insulted their culture!
>
> Have you no sense of Political Correctness?

NO !!
>
> # > "David Moss" ,
> # > > fasgnadh@yahoo.com.au writes...
> # > >
> # > >> > If you really cared about the bloke you might
> # > >> > realise his tribe never
> # > >> > mention the name of someone who has died.
> # > >>
> # > >> I'm not one of his tribe, save your crocodile tears.
> # > >
>
> According to Jewish culture, male's should be circumscised
> and eat no shellfish, on pain of death.
>

Yep, yer can't get a root, so the tribe could die out,

> # > > Congratulations Fasi, you just blew any
> # > > credibility you ever imagined
> # > > you had on indigenous issues.
>
> # > David, I am shocked.
> # >
> # > Did you ever really believe that our net-kook Fasi
> # > had any credibility ?
> #
> # He's actually OK when he engages his brain.

Bullshit!

RMOD

R M O'Donnell · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 6

"Neville Duguid" wrote in message %nevilled@bigpond.net.au...
> Swampfox wrote:
>
>> Now we must begin the quest to eradicate bias from our society, and it's
>> we
>> who must do it because no-one takes any notice whatsoever of the UN.
>
> Only problem - it's against the law to put fasgnadh through an atomiser
> Wink

That is true, unfortunately. :;- ((

Addinall · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 5

R M O'Donnell wrote:

> "Addinall" wrote in message
> @g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > R M O'Donnell wrote:
> >
> >> "Addinall" wrote in message
> >> @z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> >> >
> >> > >R M O'Donnell wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I am glad some enjoyment was found from one of my musings/compilations.
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> You me we tupella yakai longa usenet, little bits byen bye.
> >> >
> >> > Ah. You me tupella, praps allpella tok pisin? Makim tru.
> >> > Beta onepella twopella tok pik pik lontime Canberra?
> >> >
> >> No more tok pisin. Speak that one Murralungitch, yuai ?
> >
> > New one on me mate. Where is that from?
> >
> > Mark Addinall.
>
> Australia

Which bit? Mek?

Mark Addinall.

>
> >> RM O'Donnell
> >

RodneyK · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 1

Alicia wrote:
> I couldn't be bothered reading this thread. But I will say this: Howard is
> confused about anything and everything that doesn't directly involve him
> getting more votes.
>

Saying what he did will get him more votes. He is not confused about the
teaching of history in Australian schools at all. He knows precisely
what he is saying.

RodneyK

(Top posting is now the rule for Fasgnadh).

> "fasgnadh" wrote in message
> $0$23753$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>>
>>
>> The Prime Minister's push to overhaul the teaching of history,
>> is making him look silly as the Commonwealth is already
>> spending millions of dollars to teach what he's complaining
>> is not taught! B^D
>>
>>
>> "Australia Day: PM wants new history"
>> - The Herald Sun 26/1/2006
>>
>> In 1984 they rewrote New History every day!
>>
>> Howard is always trying to rewrite history to
>> suit his White Eyepatch view, but this latest
>> outburst show he is either out of touch or
>> is doing a little of the Dog Whistling he is
>> famous for;
>>
>>
>> "Mr Howard condemned teachers yesterday for focusing
>> on abstract themes at the expense of the timeline of
>> history.
>>
>> "Too often, it is taught without any sense of structured
>> narrative, replaced by a fragmented stew of themes
>> and issues," he said.
>> ...
>>
>> Mr Howard said it was ridiculous to think history could
>> be taught without students knowing when the Battle of
>> Hastings was fought (1066) or when Captain Cook arrived
>> in Australia (1770)."
>>
>> The PM's emphassis on Date's and Timelines seems odd,
>> as these certainly are taught already.. has he had a look
>> at the VCE History Exam? B^p
>>
>> BTW: The Battle of Hastings is ENGLISH History, not Australian
>> History! BD
>>
>> What's more, his concern that students are taught
>> Themes, such as Australians at War , and issues,
>> such as Anzac Day, bring those dates ALIVE for young
>> students.
>>
>>
>> "Kate Cameron, the immediate past national president of the History
>> Teachers' Association, says Mr Howard of all people should know the
>> Commonwealth has invested millions of dollars into the teaching of
> history.
>> She says the prime minister will soon realise his claims that young
>> people do not have a full understanding of Australian history are
> unfounded.
>> "Well, I don't know what he would base that assertion upon - he just
>> said it was obvious to him but he didn't explain what his sources were
>> about how obvious it was," Ms Cameron told ABC Radio.
>>
>> "I think he's going to be extremely embarrassed when he realises that
>> his own government has poured millions of dollars into providing
>> wonderful teaching resources and professional development opportunities
>> ... to promote the teaching of Australian history."
>>
>>
>> Whats more, it is through looking at Gallipoli, and Kokoda
>> that Australian Values such as mateship and self sacrifice
>> are explored!
>>
>> The PM is also contradicting himself because elsewhere he claims
>> teaching those values IS important.. (Is he getting Past It?)! B^p
>>
>> "At the National Press Club in Canberra today, John Howard talked about
>> the balance between maintaining Australian values, and allowing sections
>> of the community to express their culture and beliefs."
>>
>> So how do we teach what those Australian values are unless
>> we teach the about Simpson, and the Anzac tradition,
>> themes of Mateship and loyalty.. rather than the Date
>> which King Fauntleroy ascended to the British throne!?
>> (After all, they are all pretenders after the French
>> Bastard ascended the throne! B^0
>>
>>
>> It also sounds as if The PM wants to teach beliefs, HIS beliefs,
>> rather than teaching facts and letting students decide for
>> themselves what they believe in.... he sounds more like a
>> Cardinal discussin RE classes, or a Mullah in a Madrassa,
>> than the PM of a secular education system;
>>
>> "We should have faith in what we have achieved and what we have become,"
>> he said.
>>
>> "The Howard vision for teaching would cover
>> indigenous history, the influence of the West
>> and the stories of nations who fed European settlement."
>>
>> But thats simply a strategy for excluding some immigrants
>> in favour of the PM's ethnic group!
>>
>> His prescription, Dates and Timelines, would mean NOTHING
>> would be taught in the proposed 'indigenous history' other
>> than some distant arrival date and White Settlement.
>>
>> Indigenous history is not about dates and timelines, so his
>> call to have more of 1066 and All That, and effectively
>> abolish indigenous history about events, values and meaning.
>>
>> And 'the stories of Nations who fed European settlement'
>> means your kids learn about Serbs and Croats, but not
>> about the Chinese who arrived much earlier, or the Vietnamese,
>> whose story is interwoven with our own! B^p
>>
>> As usual, it appears as if he has his usual agenda, and what
>> a cheap ploy to fire his shots in the Culture Wars on Australia
>> Day! B^p
>>
>> The ALP simply pointed out the Federal governments role in
>> educating History teachers "after an inquiry five years
>> ago identified the need to improve preparation of university
>> history teachers."
>>
>> "More than five years later John Howard is speaking about the same
>> problems," Ms Macklin said. "If he is so concerned about history
>> teaching he should ask (former education minister) Brendan Nelson what
>> he has been doing."
>>
>> State Education ministers just seem puzzled what the PM was
>> raving about, as Dates, timelines and Chronology are the
>> essence of history traching.. but so is understanding what the
>> events MEANT, and how values developed!
>>
>> "Australia's evolution as a nation and its development is
>> a critical part of the curriculum taught in Victorian schools,"
>>
>>
>> Howard, stuck in the 1950's is out of touch and out of DATE! B^)
>>

Alicia · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 1

I couldn't be bothered reading this thread. But I will say this: Howard is
confused about anything and everything that doesn't directly involve him
getting more votes.

"fasgnadh" wrote in message$0$23753$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
>
>
> The Prime Minister's push to overhaul the teaching of history,
> is making him look silly as the Commonwealth is already
> spending millions of dollars to teach what he's complaining
> is not taught! B^D
>
>
> "Australia Day: PM wants new history"
> - The Herald Sun 26/1/2006
>
> In 1984 they rewrote New History every day!
>
> Howard is always trying to rewrite history to
> suit his White Eyepatch view, but this latest
> outburst show he is either out of touch or
> is doing a little of the Dog Whistling he is
> famous for;
>
>
> "Mr Howard condemned teachers yesterday for focusing
> on abstract themes at the expense of the timeline of
> history.
>
> "Too often, it is taught without any sense of structured
> narrative, replaced by a fragmented stew of themes
> and issues," he said.
> ...
>
> Mr Howard said it was ridiculous to think history could
> be taught without students knowing when the Battle of
> Hastings was fought (1066) or when Captain Cook arrived
> in Australia (1770)."
>
> The PM's emphassis on Date's and Timelines seems odd,
> as these certainly are taught already.. has he had a look
> at the VCE History Exam? B^p
>
> BTW: The Battle of Hastings is ENGLISH History, not Australian
> History! BD
>
> What's more, his concern that students are taught
> Themes, such as Australians at War , and issues,
> such as Anzac Day, bring those dates ALIVE for young
> students.
>
>
> "Kate Cameron, the immediate past national president of the History
> Teachers' Association, says Mr Howard of all people should know the
> Commonwealth has invested millions of dollars into the teaching of
history.
>
> She says the prime minister will soon realise his claims that young
> people do not have a full understanding of Australian history are
unfounded.
>
> "Well, I don't know what he would base that assertion upon - he just
> said it was obvious to him but he didn't explain what his sources were
> about how obvious it was," Ms Cameron told ABC Radio.
>
> "I think he's going to be extremely embarrassed when he realises that
> his own government has poured millions of dollars into providing
> wonderful teaching resources and professional development opportunities
> ... to promote the teaching of Australian history."
>
>
> Whats more, it is through looking at Gallipoli, and Kokoda
> that Australian Values such as mateship and self sacrifice
> are explored!
>
> The PM is also contradicting himself because elsewhere he claims
> teaching those values IS important.. (Is he getting Past It?)! B^p
>
> "At the National Press Club in Canberra today, John Howard talked about
> the balance between maintaining Australian values, and allowing sections
> of the community to express their culture and beliefs."
>
> So how do we teach what those Australian values are unless
> we teach the about Simpson, and the Anzac tradition,
> themes of Mateship and loyalty.. rather than the Date
> which King Fauntleroy ascended to the British throne!?
> (After all, they are all pretenders after the French
> Bastard ascended the throne! B^0
>
>
> It also sounds as if The PM wants to teach beliefs, HIS beliefs,
> rather than teaching facts and letting students decide for
> themselves what they believe in.... he sounds more like a
> Cardinal discussin RE classes, or a Mullah in a Madrassa,
> than the PM of a secular education system;
>
> "We should have faith in what we have achieved and what we have become,"
> he said.
>
> "The Howard vision for teaching would cover
> indigenous history, the influence of the West
> and the stories of nations who fed European settlement."
>
> But thats simply a strategy for excluding some immigrants
> in favour of the PM's ethnic group!
>
> His prescription, Dates and Timelines, would mean NOTHING
> would be taught in the proposed 'indigenous history' other
> than some distant arrival date and White Settlement.
>
> Indigenous history is not about dates and timelines, so his
> call to have more of 1066 and All That, and effectively
> abolish indigenous history about events, values and meaning.
>
> And 'the stories of Nations who fed European settlement'
> means your kids learn about Serbs and Croats, but not
> about the Chinese who arrived much earlier, or the Vietnamese,
> whose story is interwoven with our own! B^p
>
> As usual, it appears as if he has his usual agenda, and what
> a cheap ploy to fire his shots in the Culture Wars on Australia
> Day! B^p
>
> The ALP simply pointed out the Federal governments role in
> educating History teachers "after an inquiry five years
> ago identified the need to improve preparation of university
> history teachers."
>
> "More than five years later John Howard is speaking about the same
> problems," Ms Macklin said. "If he is so concerned about history
> teaching he should ask (former education minister) Brendan Nelson what
> he has been doing."
>
> State Education ministers just seem puzzled what the PM was
> raving about, as Dates, timelines and Chronology are the
> essence of history traching.. but so is understanding what the
> events MEANT, and how values developed!
>
> "Australia's evolution as a nation and its development is
> a critical part of the curriculum taught in Victorian schools,"
>
>
> Howard, stuck in the 1950's is out of touch and out of DATE! B^)
>
>
> --
>
> "There is a fundamental distinction between
> multicultural and Multiculturalism, which racists
> constantly and deliberately confuse.
>
> A society is multicultural if it has more than one
> culture being practised within that society.
>
> 'Multicultural - A society which embraces a number
> of minority cultures' - Macquarie Dictionary
>
> Multiculturalism is two things, the -ISM indicates that it
> is a set of beliefs or ideas about multiculture,
> ie a recognition of multicultural REALITY, an acceptance of it,
> a celebration of it.
> But it is ALSO a set of government policies to
> formalize that recognition, acceptance and celebration!
> Thus the Howard government has a Department which documents
> the positive economic social and foreign policy benefits from
> having a successful, open, democratic multicultural society."
>
> - fasgnadh
>
>
> "When Fasnag talks multiculturalism -> people living in Australia have
> come from different cultures, and live different lives that could be
> categorised into groups if you chose to do so.
>
> When I talk multiculturalism -> the formal policy at a governmental
> level"
>
> - Rev. Headjob, liar and thief
> demonstrating the deliberate confusion.
> Message-ID:
>
>
> ------------
>
> The Official [Est. June 2000] aus.culture.true-blue FAQ ;
>
> http://geocities.com/fairdinkum_trueblue/faq.html
>
>
> The true-blue Homestead;
>
> http://geocities.com/fairdinkum_trueblue/
>
>
> The true-blue Hall Of Fame;
>
> http://www.geocities.com/trueblue_hall_of_fame/index.html
>
>
> The Tuckerbox;
>
> http://www.geocities.com/true_blue_tucker_box/index.html
>
>
> -----------