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Terra Nullius - Lies and Fraud !
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Desi Arnez Snr



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:03 pm    Post subject: Terra Nullius - Lies and Fraud ! Reply with quote

I missed the recently raised arguments regarding Henry Reynolds lying
about colonial authorities using "terra nullius" as the basis for
European settlement when in fact they did not do this.

Like most people, apparently including High Court judges, I assumed
that there was some truth to Reynold's assertion.

What a disgusting liar Reynolds is being exposed as when there is no
evidence whatsoever that colonial authorities ever used this principle
as the basis for settlement or that this principle even existed in
British Law.

Apparently the first juridicial analysis exposing the fraudulant
nature of Reynold's proposition was published recently in the
Australian Financial Review. Another analysis was subsequently
published in the Bulletin

How incredible that the left-wing looney media such as the ABC do not
even mention this momentous disclosure. Instead. it continues to be
taught in schools and universities as the basis of all that was wrong
with European settlement.

These corrupt insitutions are beyond contempt that they would
fabricate history in this way. If they want to destroy the concept of
truth and argue that reality is negotiable according to the objectives
that are to be achieved, they should not then complain when this
argument is also used by their opponents. Socialism and Fascism are
two sides of the one coin, indistiguishable in their application.

Here is the link to the Bulletin article:

http://bulletin.ninemsn.com.au/bulletin/EdDesk.nsf/0/2821c32417fab1d6ca256d6e00203509?OpenDocument

here is the link to where I found out about this in the Australian:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,9952267%255E7583,00.html

Here is the Australian article, post if you can't reach the Bulletin
article.


Christopher Pearson: Shifting war on terra nullius

June 26, 2004
SINCE The Other Side of the Frontier was published in 1981, Henry
Reynolds has been a leading figure in the little world of Aboriginal
history. It was the first of a trilogy, culminating in 1990 in With
the White People. Since then he has preferred more overtly activist
publishing endeavours such as The Law of the Land, which John Mulvaney
described as "a tract for these times".

Polemical histories always have a use-by date and somehow I expected
that a methodical demolition from the Right, probably by Keith
Windschuttle, would announce that Reynolds's time had expired.
Instead, the call has come from out of left field, from Monash
University's Bain Attwood, in a long article a fortnight ago in The
Financial Review.

It was as deftly executed as these things ever are. Attwood praised
with faint damn Reynolds's oeuvre and the fruits of his politicking.
Then he offered a revisionist account of the Mabo judgment, calling
into question Reynolds's deployment of the doctrine of terra nullius
and his professional integrity. What he was announcing, with a minimum
of fanfare, was a huge paradigm shift in Australian historiography.

Attwood may have been hoping in part to avoid being overtaken by
events. Last year a Tasmanian scholar, Michael Connor, published an
essay in The Bulletin that most other historians studiously ignored.
In it he demonstrated that Reynolds had conjured up an obscure term,
terra nullius, to which he gave three contradictory definitions, as
the official rationale for settlement without compensation. Connor
showed that it was a notion unknown to Australian colonists or the
common law, but one that had gained currency in the 1970s, mostly as a
result of Reynolds's writings, and that confusion about its meaning
was common among High Court judges.

Connor's views in his Bulletin essay and as set forth in a recent
speech to the Samuel Griffith Society (a group that concentrates on
constitutional law questions) are certainly more trenchantly expressed
than Attwood's. Even so, the latter are more significant as markers of
the collapse of the dominant tradition in historiography. It has
plainly become too close to mythography for even its own practitioners
to bear.

How does Attwood manage the pea and thimble trick of affirming the
activist labours that led to Mabo, while casting doubts on Reynolds's
example as a historian?

The devices he chooses are to identify The Law of the Land as bearing
"a striking resemblance to myth" and being "a work of juridical
history rather than a work of academic history".

Juridical history, he tells us, is "a way of representing the past so
as to make it available to legal judgment". Readers of academic
history "bring to it different expectations to those they take to
works of juridical history and myth narratives".

Again, "with works of history, the author undertakes to represent the
past as truthfully to that time as he or she can ... authors of
historical fiction and myth give no such undertaking". Reynolds's
error is that "he does not make clear what he was doing".

The Law of the Land, then, "is an instrumentally political work in
which its author primarily tries to construct a past rather than
reconstruct one".

Attwood even invokes the innovation that gained so much attention
during the Hindmarsh Island affair of "inventing tradition".

Reynolds "sought to make a history in order to help the judiciary
remake the law". In common with many a postmodern narrative before it,
"the story of terra nullius, like myth generally, was not an arbitrary
invention but was in some senses true". But because its relation to
academic history is so tenuous, "in these terms it can be regarded as
a lie".

Terra nullius was "a brilliant stroke in both legal and political
terms. However, it is unsatisfactory as a historical argument
regarding the process and events that caused dispossession and the
law's role in that."

Attwood quotes historian David Ritter's description of terra nullius
as "a stage edifice". It was, he says, "accepted so it could be
demolished by a High Court intent on redeeming the good name of the
Australian legal system ... a necessary myth for a nation-state
seeking to confront the nature of its origins so belatedly in its
history".

Judicial reformers were invited to overturn a phantom doctrine so that
they could discover the inhering native title Reynolds had assured
them the Whig reformers in London had intended. Attwood notes that "in
making this argument Reynolds drew selectively on international
jurists and the common law. At the same time he overlooked or
downplayed the main reason why indigenous rights to land had been
acknowledged ... namely that it was necessary or advantageous for the
imperial power to do so."

Attwood ultimately concludes that Reynolds's juridical history is
"simplistic" and says of its black-and-white oppositional account of
humane Colonial Office v racist settlers that "most academic
historians have rejected this argument". He looks forward to a new
kind of scholarly enterprise, which "needs to conceive of history and
the relationship between past and present in a more sophisticated and
rigorous manner".

Lest anyone imagine that this might be a post-instrumentalist history,
he makes it clear that it will not, but will just be rather less
transparent. "By excavating the complex messiness of the past in the
present rather than evading it, one can produce histories that might
have more useful social and political outcomes than ones that try to
use the past in the service of simplistic contemporary political and
legal narratives."

It does not seem too much to hope that, when people reflect on what
Reynolds's generation of historians believed were useful social and
political outcomes, they might decide to view both them and their
intellectual heirs with habitual scepticism and distrust.

Unfortunately, the discipline of economic history is so unfashionable
that we are not likely any time soon to get a sober reckoning of what
Mabo, Wik and the native title legislation all told cost the gross
national product.

Nor are we likely to learn how much was diverted from productive
investment into the pockets of lawyers or anthropologists and
historian expert witnesses in countless land claims.

There is some comfort, though, in the thought that the legal jacks in
office and ornaments of the academy who prattled so confidently about
terra nullius and its implications will have to confront the
uncomfortable fact that they didn't know what they were talking about.
Some of the more egregious of them are named and cited in Connor's
Error Nullius Revisited on the web.

Connor's view of The Law of the Land is lapidary: "This sad book,
tedious but tragically influential, is still in print, updated by its
author. It offered the definitions of terra nullius which have
influenced subsequent dictionary-makers and textbook writers. Here
rests the conscience of our nation. The whole magnificent edifice of a
generation's history-writing is based on this. Law-making has been
influenced by it. What a muddle, what a mass of eloquence has sprung
from it. Books, articles, sermons, passions, bitterness,
self-righteousness, HSC courses, university courses: all from 10 1/2
lines in a Penguin paperback."

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Neville Duguid



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 4:38 am    Post subject: Re: Terra Nullius - Lies and Fraud ! Reply with quote

Desi Arnez Snr wrote:

> I missed the recently raised arguments regarding Henry Reynolds lying
> about colonial authorities using "terra nullius" as the basis for
> European settlement when in fact they did not do this.
>
> Like most people, apparently including High Court judges, I assumed
> that there was some truth to Reynold's assertion.
>
> What a disgusting liar Reynolds is being exposed as when there is no
> evidence whatsoever that colonial authorities ever used this principle
> as the basis for settlement or that this principle even existed in
> British Law.
>
> Apparently the first juridicial analysis exposing the fraudulant
> nature of Reynold's proposition was published recently in the
> Australian Financial Review. Another analysis was subsequently
> published in the Bulletin
>
> How incredible that the left-wing looney media such as the ABC do not
> even mention this momentous disclosure. Instead. it continues to be
> taught in schools and universities as the basis of all that was wrong
> with European settlement.
>
> These corrupt insitutions are beyond contempt that they would
> fabricate history in this way. If they want to destroy the concept of
> truth and argue that reality is negotiable according to the objectives
> that are to be achieved, they should not then complain when this
> argument is also used by their opponents. Socialism and Fascism are
> two sides of the one coin, indistiguishable in their application.
>
> Here is the link to the Bulletin article:
>
> http://bulletin.ninemsn.com.au/bulletin/EdDesk.nsf/0/2821c32417fab1d6
ca256d6e00203509?OpenDocument
>
> here is the link to where I found out about this in the Australian:
>
> http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,995
2267%255E7583,00.html

[...]

Very illuminating. Please consider re-posting in aus.history

I remember how I was rubbished here on aus.politics when I complained
that terra nullius (packaged with Mabo) seemed to come out of nowhere,
taking the ordinary population by surprise. (Eddie Mabo's boundary claim
on Murray Island never had any relevance to continental Australia, the
Torres Strait Islanders of Mer having been settled agriculturalists with
individually inherited plots of ground passed down since prehistoric
times). Australians were collectively condemned en masse over a
"principle of common law" they had never heard of before - and, now it
turns out, neither had their High Court judges! I was sneered at by the
usual suspects for my "ignorance" of the law. All on the say-so of
political correctoids posturing that only a "redneck" could have grown
up ignorant of the term. Talk about trying one on. Talk about the
Emperor's New Clothes!
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michael



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 8:49 am    Post subject: Re: Terra Nullius - Lies and Fraud ! Reply with quote

Connors' Bulletin article is pure sophistry.

I am certainly no fan of Reynolds but I don't
think even he would have argued that the convicts,
soldiers and settlers ran around the country with
pocket legal guides declaring 'terra nullius' whenever
they decided to annex some more land.

However the fact that Cook (among others) planted
a British flag and claimed the country for the British
Crown shows that the invaders did not concede a
pre-existing valid legal claim to the land by its occupants.

That Lionel Murphy (via Paul Coe) in 1979 first entrenched
'terra nullius' as an Australian legal term (perhaps based
on, but not identical to, an earlier Algerian one) is simply
an acknowledgement of the fact that *some* sort of legal
shorthand was needed to describe the process as it had
come to be a concept commonly used in Australian legal
arguments by then. That there was no official legal name
for the process beforehand is irrelevant.

And that 8 years later Reynolds went on to use a predefined
legal term as a historical label for the process does not
reflect upon his scholarship one way or the other. The
Oxford Companion to Australian History accepted his
usage and the rest is, um, history.

Connors' argument is as stupid as saying that 'natural
selection' could not have led to the evolution of modern
humans because Darwin didn't even define the term until
the 19th century. If he preferred that the appropriation of
Aboriginal land by British settlers be called 'res nullius'
or 'merger and aquisition' he should have got into print
on the topic before Reynolds and tried to get it accepted
by his academic peers.

michael
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Paul S



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 1:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Terra Nullius - Lies and Fraud ! Reply with quote

"Desi Arnez Snr" wrote in message@4ax.com...
> I missed the recently raised arguments regarding Henry Reynolds lying
> about colonial authorities using "terra nullius" as the basis for
> European settlement when in fact they did not do this.
>
>

I don't understand the leap he makes from 'proving' that terra nullius is a
fabrication to the assertion that no injustice has been done to the
Aboriginal people and we should all stop worrieing about it.

Paul S.

>
> Here is the link to the Bulletin article:
>
>
http://bulletin.ninemsn.com.au/bulletin/EdDesk.nsf/0/2821c32417fab1d6ca256d6e00203509?OpenDocument
>
> here is the link to where I found out about this in the Australian:
>
>
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,9952267%255E7583,00.html
>
> Here is the Australian article, post if you can't reach the Bulletin
> article.
>
>
> Christopher Pearson: Shifting war on terra nullius
>
> June 26, 2004
> SINCE The Other Side of the Frontier was published in 1981, Henry
> Reynolds has been a leading figure in the little world of Aboriginal
> history. It was the first of a trilogy, culminating in 1990 in With
> the White People. Since then he has preferred more overtly activist
> publishing endeavours such as The Law of the Land, which John Mulvaney
> described as "a tract for these times".
>
> Polemical histories always have a use-by date and somehow I expected
> that a methodical demolition from the Right, probably by Keith
> Windschuttle, would announce that Reynolds's time had expired.
> Instead, the call has come from out of left field, from Monash
> University's Bain Attwood, in a long article a fortnight ago in The
> Financial Review.
>
> It was as deftly executed as these things ever are. Attwood praised
> with faint damn Reynolds's oeuvre and the fruits of his politicking.
> Then he offered a revisionist account of the Mabo judgment, calling
> into question Reynolds's deployment of the doctrine of terra nullius
> and his professional integrity. What he was announcing, with a minimum
> of fanfare, was a huge paradigm shift in Australian historiography.
>
> Attwood may have been hoping in part to avoid being overtaken by
> events. Last year a Tasmanian scholar, Michael Connor, published an
> essay in The Bulletin that most other historians studiously ignored.
> In it he demonstrated that Reynolds had conjured up an obscure term,
> terra nullius, to which he gave three contradictory definitions, as
> the official rationale for settlement without compensation. Connor
> showed that it was a notion unknown to Australian colonists or the
> common law, but one that had gained currency in the 1970s, mostly as a
> result of Reynolds's writings, and that confusion about its meaning
> was common among High Court judges.
>
> Connor's views in his Bulletin essay and as set forth in a recent
> speech to the Samuel Griffith Society (a group that concentrates on
> constitutional law questions) are certainly more trenchantly expressed
> than Attwood's. Even so, the latter are more significant as markers of
> the collapse of the dominant tradition in historiography. It has
> plainly become too close to mythography for even its own practitioners
> to bear.
>
> How does Attwood manage the pea and thimble trick of affirming the
> activist labours that led to Mabo, while casting doubts on Reynolds's
> example as a historian?
>
> The devices he chooses are to identify The Law of the Land as bearing
> "a striking resemblance to myth" and being "a work of juridical
> history rather than a work of academic history".
>
> Juridical history, he tells us, is "a way of representing the past so
> as to make it available to legal judgment". Readers of academic
> history "bring to it different expectations to those they take to
> works of juridical history and myth narratives".
>
> Again, "with works of history, the author undertakes to represent the
> past as truthfully to that time as he or she can ... authors of
> historical fiction and myth give no such undertaking". Reynolds's
> error is that "he does not make clear what he was doing".
>
> The Law of the Land, then, "is an instrumentally political work in
> which its author primarily tries to construct a past rather than
> reconstruct one".
>
> Attwood even invokes the innovation that gained so much attention
> during the Hindmarsh Island affair of "inventing tradition".
>
> Reynolds "sought to make a history in order to help the judiciary
> remake the law". In common with many a postmodern narrative before it,
> "the story of terra nullius, like myth generally, was not an arbitrary
> invention but was in some senses true". But because its relation to
> academic history is so tenuous, "in these terms it can be regarded as
> a lie".
>
> Terra nullius was "a brilliant stroke in both legal and political
> terms. However, it is unsatisfactory as a historical argument
> regarding the process and events that caused dispossession and the
> law's role in that."
>
> Attwood quotes historian David Ritter's description of terra nullius
> as "a stage edifice". It was, he says, "accepted so it could be
> demolished by a High Court intent on redeeming the good name of the
> Australian legal system ... a necessary myth for a nation-state
> seeking to confront the nature of its origins so belatedly in its
> history".
>
> Judicial reformers were invited to overturn a phantom doctrine so that
> they could discover the inhering native title Reynolds had assured
> them the Whig reformers in London had intended. Attwood notes that "in
> making this argument Reynolds drew selectively on international
> jurists and the common law. At the same time he overlooked or
> downplayed the main reason why indigenous rights to land had been
> acknowledged ... namely that it was necessary or advantageous for the
> imperial power to do so."
>
> Attwood ultimately concludes that Reynolds's juridical history is
> "simplistic" and says of its black-and-white oppositional account of
> humane Colonial Office v racist settlers that "most academic
> historians have rejected this argument". He looks forward to a new
> kind of scholarly enterprise, which "needs to conceive of history and
> the relationship between past and present in a more sophisticated and
> rigorous manner".
>
> Lest anyone imagine that this might be a post-instrumentalist history,
> he makes it clear that it will not, but will just be rather less
> transparent. "By excavating the complex messiness of the past in the
> present rather than evading it, one can produce histories that might
> have more useful social and political outcomes than ones that try to
> use the past in the service of simplistic contemporary political and
> legal narratives."
>
> It does not seem too much to hope that, when people reflect on what
> Reynolds's generation of historians believed were useful social and
> political outcomes, they might decide to view both them and their
> intellectual heirs with habitual scepticism and distrust.
>
> Unfortunately, the discipline of economic history is so unfashionable
> that we are not likely any time soon to get a sober reckoning of what
> Mabo, Wik and the native title legislation all told cost the gross
> national product.
>
> Nor are we likely to learn how much was diverted from productive
> investment into the pockets of lawyers or anthropologists and
> historian expert witnesses in countless land claims.
>
> There is some comfort, though, in the thought that the legal jacks in
> office and ornaments of the academy who prattled so confidently about
> terra nullius and its implications will have to confront the
> uncomfortable fact that they didn't know what they were talking about.
> Some of the more egregious of them are named and cited in Connor's
> Error Nullius Revisited on the web.
>
> Connor's view of The Law of the Land is lapidary: "This sad book,
> tedious but tragically influential, is still in print, updated by its
> author. It offered the definitions of terra nullius which have
> influenced subsequent dictionary-makers and textbook writers. Here
> rests the conscience of our nation. The whole magnificent edifice of a
> generation's history-writing is based on this. Law-making has been
> influenced by it. What a muddle, what a mass of eloquence has sprung
> from it. Books, articles, sermons, passions, bitterness,
> self-righteousness, HSC courses, university courses: all from 10 1/2
> lines in a Penguin paperback."
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Desi Arnez Snr



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 11:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Terra Nullius - Lies and Fraud ! Reply with quote

On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 00:38:10 GMT, nevilled@bigpond.net.au (Neville
Duguid) wrote:

>Very illuminating. Please consider re-posting in aus.history

Yes, this really does seem to be a momentous revelation. The earlier
presentation (on the part of the left-wing dominated universities,
newspapers, and the ABC) of the "history wars" as a fight over a
negotiable truth between the 'left-wing' and the 'right-wing' has
really been exposed now that independent, and even what could be
described as 'left-wing' (Bain Attwood), voices are being raised to
discuss how these left-wing historians have fabricated the history
they have produced.

Neville, I also would have liked to have posted this in aus.legal as
it raises issues regarding Kirby's role, not just as an 'activist
judge', but in the possibility that he was deliberately misleading his
fellow judges and making a decision on evidence that he knew was
false.

You are welcome to post the articles with your own inciteful comments
and historical background in other newsgroups (and again in
aus.politics if you want)..
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Don H



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 187

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:31 am    Post subject: Re: Terra Nullius - & Imperial conquest Reply with quote

The term "terra nullius" would seem to be a modern invention, but
irrespective, historically it would not have stopped the British (or other
colonial power) from adding Terra Australis to Crown possessions. Back
then, Imperial Conquest, and Great Power rivalry, left little time or
inclination for consideration of the rights of native inhabitants of
"foreign lands".
Not that indigenous people took it lightly - responding with spears,
boomerangs, etc; which were no ultimately match for pistols and muskets.
That John Batman may have "purchased" the Melbourne area from local tribes,
does imply some recognition of land rights. This lopsided "agreement" could
be quoted as justification for the status quo, or for compensation,
depending on viewpoint. I suppose the overall point is - what was done in
the past is done, and can't be undone; what then does the present generation
owe to the past? Of course, we could demolish the whole of Melbourne, and
hand it back to the aborigines - in as near pristine condition as possible.
No one is suggesting this. Or, do we pay some type of financial
compensation for ever to the present generation of aborigines, who,
themselves, have done nothing to deserve it - except be descendants of those
who were "swindled". It all needs careful consideration. Certainly,
indigenous peoples need and deserve some recognition and compensation for
past injustices. But a constant "mea culpa" attitude by modern "whites" is
not justified nor necessary. After all, we could claim that the Aborigines
are merely the first migrants (possibly from India; 40,000 yrs ago), and
they "invaded" Australia themselves - taking it from the kangaroos and emus!
The only "nullius" I know of is - the Nullabor Plain.
==============================
"Desi Arnez Snr" wrote in message@4ax.com...
> I missed the recently raised arguments regarding Henry Reynolds lying
> about colonial authorities using "terra nullius" as the basis for
> European settlement when in fact they did not do this.
> lines in a Penguin paperback.".........
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Billy Boy.



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 2:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Terra Nullius - & Imperial conquest Reply with quote

O.K. Mr Smarty Pants.

By way of another example, Tell me this.... Of all the hundreds of
Islands now "excised" from the "Immigration Zone", which ones are now
"Terror Nullius" ?
Bet you cain't tell me.


C.J.


On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 23:31:11 GMT, "Don H"
wrote:

>The term "terra nullius" would seem to be a modern invention, but
>irrespective, historically it would not have stopped the British (or other
>colonial power) from adding Terra Australis to Crown possessions. Back
>then, Imperial Conquest, and Great Power rivalry, left little time or
>inclination for consideration of the rights of native inhabitants of
>"foreign lands".
>Not that indigenous people took it lightly - responding with spears,
>boomerangs, etc; which were no ultimately match for pistols and muskets.
>That John Batman may have "purchased" the Melbourne area from local tribes,
>does imply some recognition of land rights. This lopsided "agreement" could
>be quoted as justification for the status quo, or for compensation,
>depending on viewpoint. I suppose the overall point is - what was done in
>the past is done, and can't be undone; what then does the present generation
>owe to the past? Of course, we could demolish the whole of Melbourne, and
>hand it back to the aborigines - in as near pristine condition as possible.
>No one is suggesting this. Or, do we pay some type of financial
>compensation for ever to the present generation of aborigines, who,
>themselves, have done nothing to deserve it - except be descendants of those
>who were "swindled". It all needs careful consideration. Certainly,
>indigenous peoples need and deserve some recognition and compensation for
>past injustices. But a constant "mea culpa" attitude by modern "whites" is
>not justified nor necessary. After all, we could claim that the Aborigines
>are merely the first migrants (possibly from India; 40,000 yrs ago), and
>they "invaded" Australia themselves - taking it from the kangaroos and emus!
>The only "nullius" I know of is - the Nullabor Plain.
>==============================
>"Desi Arnez Snr" wrote in message
>@4ax.com...
>> I missed the recently raised arguments regarding Henry Reynolds lying
>> about colonial authorities using "terra nullius" as the basis for
>> European settlement when in fact they did not do this.
>> lines in a Penguin paperback.".........
>
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michael



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Terra Nullius - & Imperial conquest Reply with quote

"Don H" says:

> Or, do we pay some type of financial
> compensation for ever to the present generation of aborigines, who,
> themselves, have done nothing to deserve it - except be descendants of
those
> who were "swindled".

Ahh, so you advocate death duties at 100%?

Bravo, that will also sort out those who have done nothing
to deserve their wealth except be the descendants of those
who did the swindling.

michael
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Eunometic



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Terra Nullius - Lies and Fraud ! Reply with quote

"michael" wrote in message news:...
> Connors' Bulletin article is pure sophistry.
>
> I am certainly no fan of Reynolds but I don't
> think even he would have argued that the convicts,
> soldiers and settlers ran around the country with
> pocket legal guides declaring 'terra nullius' whenever
> they decided to annex some more land.

Terra Nullus was simply the concept that land which was not inhabited
by a permanently settled people and was not owned in the sense of
traditional property rights.

Clearly Nomadic tribes that along with other Nomadic tribes
occaisionaly crossed the land sometimes but not always occaisioning to
hunt and gather along the way could in no sense be regarded as having
absolute rights to exclude others from that land including settlers
from the exploding population of the UK.




>
> However the fact that Cook (among others) planted
> a British flag and claimed the country for the British
> Crown shows that the invaders did not concede a
> pre-existing valid legal claim to the land by its occupants.
>
> That Lionel Murphy (via Paul Coe) in 1979 first entrenched
> 'terra nullius' as an Australian legal term (perhaps based
> on, but not identical to, an earlier Algerian one) is simply
> an acknowledgement of the fact that *some* sort of legal
> shorthand was needed to describe the process as it had
> come to be a concept commonly used in Australian legal
> arguments by then. That there was no official legal name
> for the process beforehand is irrelevant.
>
> And that 8 years later Reynolds went on to use a predefined
> legal term as a historical label for the process does not
> reflect upon his scholarship one way or the other. The
> Oxford Companion to Australian History accepted his
> usage and the rest is, um, history.
>
> Connors' argument is as stupid as saying that 'natural
> selection' could not have led to the evolution of modern
> humans because Darwin didn't even define the term until
> the 19th century. If he preferred that the appropriation of
> Aboriginal land by British settlers be called 'res nullius'
> or 'merger and aquisition' he should have got into print
> on the topic before Reynolds and tried to get it accepted
> by his academic peers.
>
> michael
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Don H



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 187

PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:43 am    Post subject: Re: Terra Nullius - & Imperial conquest Reply with quote

I'd agree this excision process can be seen as a lot of nonsense. But on the
overall control of "invaders", Aust. has a right to first determine if they
are genuine refugees, before granting them even temporary residence. Iraq
is currently invaded by Western powers, and it has a right to likewise
question, and oppose, their presence. The alien Coalition there has now
"handed over sovereignty of Iraq to the Iraqis"; how kind.
==============================
"Billy Boy." wrote in message@4ax.com...
> O.K. Mr Smarty Pants.
>
> By way of another example, Tell me this.... Of all the hundreds of
> Islands now "excised" from the "Immigration Zone", which ones are now
> "Terror Nullius" ?
> Bet you cain't tell me.
>
>
> C.J.
>
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Don H



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 187

PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:58 am    Post subject: Re: Terra Nullius - & Imperial conquest Reply with quote

No. Bequest of personal property is alright, in my view, but not beyond,
say, domestic residence and personal effects.
Where assets include ownership of vast estates or industries (or
controlling share-holdings) then these should not be passed down purely as a
family fortune.
If Capitalism is defined as the private ownership of the means of
production, distribution, and exchange - then this involves the public, and
its effect on it, and should not be a matter of automatic inheritance by
sole virtue of birth. Otherwise we end up with a Plutocracy, ie a permanent
and entrenched elite.
A Monarchy, even a constitutional one, which has huge assets, can be seen
as a distorting influence on public affairs - even the Queen nowadays pays
tax. On the other hand, "Crown land", insofar as it is under public and
democratic ownership, is alright.
=================================
"michael" wrote in message$1_1@news.iprimus.com.au...
> "Don H" says:
>
> > Or, do we pay some type of financial
> > compensation for ever to the present generation of aborigines, who,
> > themselves, have done nothing to deserve it - except be descendants of
> those
> > who were "swindled".
>
> Ahh, so you advocate death duties at 100%?
>
> Bravo, that will also sort out those who have done nothing
> to deserve their wealth except be the descendants of those
> who did the swindling.
>
> michael
>
>
>
>
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Stan Pierce



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:34 am    Post subject: Re: Terra Nullius - & Imperial conquest Reply with quote

"Don H" wrote in message$sj4.27971@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
(snipped)
> Iraq is currently invaded by Western powers, and it has a right to
likewise
> question, and oppose, their presence. The alien Coalition there has now
> "handed over sovereignty of Iraq to the Iraqis"; how kind.

So was Germany and Japan Don. The message will always be...don't mess with
us.

Any country that harbours terrorists is going to get the same. It just
needs better planning
What would * you * do, hope they will just go away.
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Stan Pierce



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:21 am    Post subject: Re: Terra Nullius - Lies and Fraud ! Reply with quote

"Eunometic" wrote in message@posting.google.com...
> "michael" wrote in message
news:...
(snipped)
> Terra Nullus was simply the concept that land which was not inhabited
> by a permanently settled people and was not owned in the sense of
> traditional property rights.
>
> Clearly Nomadic tribes that along with other Nomadic tribes
> occaisionaly crossed the land sometimes but not always occaisioning to
> hunt and gather along the way could in no sense be regarded as having
> absolute rights to exclude others from that land including settlers
> from the exploding population of the UK.

When Drake and Raleigh went awandering along the American coast Queen
Elizabeth and James after her both alowed that the english could 'plant' as
long as there was ..." No Christian Prince in residence" and to..." further
the cause of Christianity in those pagan parts". God was English in those
days and the monarch, being the representative of God, just gave orders on
His behalf.
It's logically valid at least. Charles 1st of course still believed it
until they took his head off. But the attitude didn't change. It just got
transfered to the Aristocracy right up until the second world war when
Churchill flickered brightly in the candlight... and died, and left us all
floundering in the swamp of Inaliable Rights...another god-driven obsession
of the imagination.
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Don H



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 187

PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:47 am    Post subject: Re: Terra Nullius - & Imperial conquest Reply with quote

It was touch and go with the Axis Powers in WWII, and "right" doesn't
automatically prevail. In wartime, Might is indeed Right, and those with
the better armaments and tactics will prevail, irrespective of the justice
of their cause. However, both Germans and Japs might have won support of
conquered nations if they had not been so cruel and hegemonic. The burden
of WWII fell mainly on the Russians, and the "second front" was only
belatedly opened when it looked like the Red Army would sweep all the way
across Germany - and keep going? Rehabilitation of Germany and Japan after
the war was also somewhat shrewdly calculated - the Reparations of WWI were
a lesson not to be vindictive. Also, Germany might have turned communist,
if not for Marshall Aid. Japan likewise, may have reverted to Emperor
worship - and ultimately revenge - if not helped.
That something similar is now being tried in Iraq, is a possible
interpretation. Whether it will succeed is dubious. The US had no long
term occupational intent in Germany and Japan, but is building "14 enduring
bases" in Iraq, and has its eye on the oil. Naturally, a "democratic Iraq"
is preferable to one run by militant Shiites as a theocracy, but the new
"government" has to prove its independence of US hegemony - if it is to
convince the average Iraqi that it is not merely a puppet regime of
expatriates.
Saddam Hussein was regarded as a secular heretic by al-Qaeda, and any
"habouring" of terrorists has to be proved. He certainly helped the
Palestinians, and made no secret of it. "Terrorism" is real enough, but
invasion of Iraq has stimulated it. Maybe things will settle down there,
but the US has no plans to leave. Terrorism is as terrorism does, and
"State terrorism" of US military kind, is the counterpart, and can be just
as bad in its ultimate effect, as the citizenry, caught in the middle, will
testify. Terrorism must be dealt with, and I have never said otherwise.
But there are ways and means, and injustices will always give rise to those
who will try to remedy them - by whatever means. The forthcoming "show
trial" of Saddam Hussein may implicate those who willingly supported him in
the past, when he was compliant. If people are to be tried for crimes or war
crimes, let us not limit this only to those now "on the wrong side". I
think it was GB Shaw who said, in response to "Britons never, never, shall
be slaves" that this would be less likely if they weren't conquerors.
======================================
"Stan Pierce" wrote in message$sj4.60564@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "Don H" wrote in message
> $sj4.27971@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> (snipped)
> > Iraq is currently invaded by Western powers, and it has a right to
> likewise
> > question, and oppose, their presence. The alien Coalition there has now
> > "handed over sovereignty of Iraq to the Iraqis"; how kind.
>
> So was Germany and Japan Don. The message will always be...don't mess
with
> us.
>
> Any country that harbours terrorists is going to get the same. It just
> needs better planning
> What would * you * do, hope they will just go away.
>
>
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fasgnadh



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2004 2:37 am    Post subject: Re: Terra Nullius - Lies and Fraud ! Reply with quote

michael wrote:
> Connors' Bulletin article is pure sophistry.
>

Repeated by Pearson, another IPA SpokesOrc who never misses
an opportunity to attack indigenous issues.


> I am certainly no fan of Reynolds but I don't
> think even he would have argued that the convicts,
> soldiers and settlers ran around the country with
> pocket legal guides declaring 'terra nullius' whenever
> they decided to annex some more land.
>
> However the fact that Cook (among others) planted
> a British flag and claimed the country for the British
> Crown shows that the invaders did not concede a
> pre-existing valid legal claim to the land by its occupants.
>

Thus meeting Sir Ernest Scott's definition in 1940 "as land not under
any sovereignty".

So why are Neville Nogood and Dizzi Arse-end slandering
Reynolds and Lionel Murphy with lies and fraud claiming they
invented it? B^p

Duguid, a known slanderer, even suggests that Reynolds has
been tried in a court when he misrepresents the academic's
opinion as a 'juridicial analysis';

"Apparently the first juridicial analysis exposing the fraudulant
nature of Reynold's proposition was published recently in the
Australian Financial Review."

As with Windshuttle this is not the first time a coterie of
racists, One Nation supporters and bigots have used Usenet,
and misrepresented published opinions, to simply SLANDER
Australians of some reputation.

Perhaps Henry Reynolds should be advised of Duguids crude
lies about him, I doubt Nev has enough material wealth to
provide a pool or new tennis court, but it may be a deterrent
to other liars and slanderers.

> That Lionel Murphy (via Paul Coe) in 1979 first entrenched
> 'terra nullius' as an Australian legal term (perhaps based
> on, but not identical to, an earlier Algerian one) is simply
> an acknowledgement of the fact that *some* sort of legal
> shorthand was needed to describe the process as it had
> come to be a concept commonly used in Australian legal
> arguments by then. That there was no official legal name
> for the process beforehand is irrelevant.
>
> And that 8 years later Reynolds went on to use a predefined
> legal term as a historical label for the process does not
> reflect upon his scholarship one way or the other. The
> Oxford Companion to Australian History accepted his
> usage and the rest is, um, history.
>
> Connors' argument is as stupid as saying that 'natural
> selection' could not have led to the evolution of modern
> humans because Darwin didn't even define the term until
> the 19th century.

Absolutely, the argument is a nonsense.

> If he preferred that the appropriation of
> Aboriginal land by British settlers be called 'res nullius'
> or 'merger and aquisition' he should have got into print
> on the topic before Reynolds and tried to get it accepted
> by his academic peers.
>
> michael

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