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Genocide of Australian Aborigines successfully debunked
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Neville Duguid



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2003 8:29 pm    Post subject: Genocide of Australian Aborigines successfully debunked Reply with quote

"Why weren't we told?" asked Henry Reynolds.

"Because there was nothing to be told," seems to be the combined message
from the first three articles in October's edition of Quadrant, now on
sale at major newsagents throughout Australia. This 400th edition of
Quadrant contains a number of articles which, between them, put the lie
to the idea that anything like 'genocide' ever occurred in Tasmania -
and looks increasingly improbable for the rest of Australia. Another
article in the same issue offers a clue to the motivations of those who
appear to need such a myth as a foil for the defining trait of their
psychological profiles.

Taking pride of place is Keith Windschuttle who previously threw down
the gauntlet with his 2002 book, 'The Fabrication of Aboriginal
History', Vol. 1. Had it remained uncorroborated or un-debated, some
readers might have been prone to suspect it was just another author with
a penchant for controversy. However the requisite peer review debate has
not only since occurred, but much of it publicly in the mainstream
press. A momento of that debate is a recent book of articles called
'Whitewash', edited by Robert Manne (by coincidence a former editor of
Quadrant), during which a number of historians have responded to
Windschuttle's claims regarding the lax standards of historical research
he accused some of them of practicing in Australia. Manne's book is
partly a record of those live debates, including one at the University
of Tasmania in May this year. Keith Windschuttle summarises:

"...one of the senior figures of Australian historiography, Geoffrey
Bolton, who is no supporter of mine, said in his summarising remarks
that historians should stop using the term "genocide" in Australian
history because the evidence is not there to support the charge. I
would hope that, despite all our differences, Robert Manne would
agree with me on this one. Nowhere does his own book ['Whitewash']
attempt to make a case for the genocide of the Tasmanian Aborigines.
So, despite all the sound and fury raised by this debate since last
November, we have actually made some progress. The case for genocide
in Tasmania has not been sustained. Indeed its principal advocates
have walked away from the topic, unwilling to defend it. So, my
first thesis, there was no genocide in Tasmania, I now take as proven
by default." - Keith Windschuttle (Quadrant, Oct 2000), p. 12.

"Despite what Reynolds claims, my point in all of this has not been
made to undermine land rights or to advocate the return of 'terra
nullius', an anachronistic term that was never used in colonial
Australia anyway." - Keith Windschuttle, p. 13.

Also in that same issue, Robert Murray contributes a review of an
important book 'Invisible invaders: Smallpox and Other Diseases in
Aboriginal Australia 1780-1880' by Judy Campbell (Melbourne University
Press, 2002).

"[this book] is the result of more than twenty years of research and
has an approving foreword from Professor Frank Fenner, the former
Australian National University microbiologist and Director of its
John Curtin School of Medical Research - virtually a guarantee of
scientific soundness.
Campbell, a former ANU historian, makes a strong case that the
great killer was smallpox, killing up to half and then half again of
the Aboriginal population in two cataclysmic epidemics, in the 1780s
and again during 1824-31, and then a third comparable epidemic
through much of the tropics and remote outback in the 1860s.
More controversially, she amasses a great deal of evidence to
argue that all the epidemics came south with visiting fishermen from
Macassar, on the now Indonesian island of Sulawesi, and not from the
Sydney settlement, as some have claimed. In other words, whites had
no hand - not even through negligence - in the great disasters that
depopulated the continent, even though the first came at about the
same time as British colonisers arrived and the second just as they
began to spread with their livestock into the interior.
It has never been seriously argued, except for one possibility
discussed below, that the First Fleet brought smallpox. It was not
recorded on the ships, which had closely observing medicos aboard,
and any infection could not, anyway, have survived that long a
voyage. This makes Australia different from the Americas, where early
ships on the shorter Atlantic voyage often brought smallpox from
Europe and Africa, killing millions of unprepared Indians." - Robert
Murray, p. 17.

"A result of the second epidemic was that the squatters who drove
their stock into most of Australia below the tropics over the
subsequent twenty years moved in on a depleted, disrupted and
presumably demoralised indigenous population. In some districts along
the Murrumbidgee there appeared to be no people at all, though a few
other districts seemed to escape the disease for one reason or
another. There were only about 300 left in a large part of northern
Victoria. Over much of the country, age-old small bands of fifty or
so people in which Aborigines had lived from day to day could no
longer survive and had to merge. In many other ways the tribal
structure broke down.
Campbell suggests that this could be a reason the Aborigines did
not 'resist' the squatters, though she also points to indications
that some may have thought the whites caused the epidemic. They were
more likely, however, to lay the blame on either enemy tribes or evil
spirits, since they knew the disease came from the north and west,
where there were still no whites." - Robert Murray, p. 19.

"Re-reading some popular works on the subject - all in my local
library and well-thumbed - after reading Campbell, I was struck by
how vague, guess-prone and loosely worded they were. There also
seemed no sense of proportion. A smallpox epidemic which may have
wiped out half the population, and is well covered in the printed
records of the time, is usually treated as just one more of the ills
the whites brought or might have brought.
Manning Clark, despite his eagle eye for official weakness, does
not mention it. David Day in 'Claiming a Continent' suggests that
Butlin is probably right, but that there is a weak case for the
Macassar theory. I thought on first reading Robert Hughes's 'The
Fatal Shore' (1987) years ago that it was over the top about
Aborigines, convicts, women and the environment as victims, brilliant
work of literary showmanship though it is. This is probably the
world's best known and best read book on Australian history, and the
only international best-seller. It is probably the only one many,
even in Australia, will read. And it is at the top of Diamond's
further readings list. - Robert Murray, pp. 120-21.

The third non-editorial article in that same edition, 'Bias at the
National Museum', follows up Windschuttle's complaints about bias in the
galleries of the National Museum of Australia (NMA) in 2001, which
resulted in a review of the museum's exhibits by a panel of experts. In
consequence, the more blatantly offensive exhibits appear to have been
toned down or replaced. That article's author, Rob Foot, recently
inspected the museum's galleries and concluded:

"The review panel found that the problem of ideological bias was
confined to 'pockets' and was not institutional or systemic. If one
takes bias to mean outright statements of support for a specific
political position, the panel is no doubt right ... [however]
On a deeper excavation, a different level of bias becomes appar-
ent. A careful sub-textual reading uncovers a highly politicised -
and negative - reading of Australia's past and present that should be
deeply disturbing to the community that funded the construction of
the museum and the filling of its galleries. On its surface, the
museum presents as a bewildering compilation of largely dissociated
artefacts, voice-overs and sound effects. But, appearances to the
contrary notwithstanding, there are clear connecting threads that
identify the underlying ideological presumptions. The clues are to be
found in the arrangements of the artefacts and the captions that
accompany them." - Rob Foot, p. 22.

"...Nothing good came, then, from over 200 years of European
settlement, other than this latter-day ascension of the Greens. There
is hardly a single exhibit in the first exhibitions of Tangled
Destinies that does not have a negative connotation where the
Europeans are concerned. If this strikes readers as an extreme view,
consider the following quotations from the captions featured in the
various Tangled Destinies displays.
'The result [of European arrival] was biological invasion on an
unmatched scale and extinction of many native animals and plants.'
This is among the very first statements made by the NMA - it is from
the first panel in the gallery - and it sets the general tone.
'This futile barrier [the rabbit-proof fence] is a reminder that
more than one species colonised Australia after 1788.' That is,
rabbits and European humans; both species were similarly
uncontrollable.
'Australians share more than half their history since 1788 with
buffalo, rabbits, cane toads and other invaders. Invasions are often
accomplished quickly. Successful invaders become fellow residents.'
The implication that Europeans were an invading pest species could
hardly be clearer." - Rob Foot, p. 23.

The way Rob Foot describes some of its galleries, the National Museum of
Australia comes across like a theme park implementation of a certain
Little Red (or should that be Green) Book. I'll skip most of the obvious
similarities, without trying to figure out how much the NMA's themes owe
to Cuban and other overseas 'freedom fighters' as opposed to the
natively Australian.

[Re the North Head Quarantine Station, c. 1940s] "...a pair of
manacles is prominently displayed. The caption reads: 'These manacles
were used to restrain inmates not willing to comply with quarantine
regulations.' This again has a nice 1970s feel about it - the old
'resistance' motif. But there is no acknowledgment of the reasons for
a strict quarantine police or of the disastrous consequences of
diseases like typhoid, smallpox, cholera or tuberculosis spreading
through the community, as might happen if an infected person escaped
custody. Medical science, which attracts no mention in these
galleries, has successfully eradicated these diseases today, but they
were then a potent threat. It is as if the museum cannot comprehend
that things were not always as they are now." - Rob Foot, p. 25.

Ah, but now we go on see the reason why certain living cargoes being
turned loose on the continent without question or restraint is a cert to
be represented as GOOD rather than BAD:

"In 'Exile', it catalogues an Italian, Illario Cappeluti, who was
interned in Australia 'as war raged in Europe in the 1940s'. While
the NMA acknowledges that Australia was then at war with 'his'
(Cappeluti's) country, it does not mention that Italy was one of the
Axis powers, along with Germany and Japan, which had joined together
in a fascist war of world conquest; or that most of continental
Europe - where 'war raged', supposedly - was then, save for neutral
powers, in the hands of the Nazis and their Italian allies. The
historical context for internment of aliens in Australia is almost
wholly suppressed in the museum's account." - Rob Foot, p. 25.

Having not seen the museum displays myself, I cannot say whether I would
share the author's assessment. So it is hard to know whether it would
make me angry, or laugh, if the propaganda is as transparent as he
paints for us. Indeed Foot himself admits he laughed immoderately on
more than one occasion while viewing the NMA's exhibits. Maybe that's
the appropriate spirit to view them in? If tour guides conducted 'Spot
the Subliminal Message' tours, maybe even I could get a laugh or two out
of such a place.

But, back to someone who has actually seen it:

"It is feasible, in considering Nation [one of the galleries], to
conclude that ideological bias, as such, is not the primary issue.
Rather, what is discernable is a generational worldview based on the
experience, once again, of the radicalised generation of the 1970s.
The principal target is not a political system, or compendium of
ideas, but rather the values, lifestyles and pre-occupations of that
generation's parents." - Rob Foot, p. 25.

Or, as Freud might have put it, they STILL hate their fathers?

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Moses Lim



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 4:59 am    Post subject: Re: Genocide of Australian Aborigines successfully debunked Reply with quote

Neville Duguid wrote:

----snipped----

interesting articles but a little bit hard to reconcile with diary
entries from that era ... also u r talking only of tasmania ..
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Neville Duguid



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 10:57 am    Post subject: Re: Genocide of Australian Aborigines successfully debunked Reply with quote

Neville Duguid wrote in
:

> "Why weren't we told?" asked Henry Reynolds.
>
> "Because there was nothing to be told," seems to be the combined message
> from the first three articles in October's edition of Quadrant, now on
> sale at major newsagents throughout Australia. This 400th edition of
> Quadrant contains a number of articles which, between them, put the lie
> to the idea that anything like 'genocide' ever occurred in Tasmania -
> and looks increasingly improbable for the rest of Australia. Another
> article in the same issue offers a clue to the motivations of those who
> appear to need such a myth as a foil for the defining trait of their
> psychological profiles.
>
> Taking pride of place is Keith Windschuttle who previously threw down
> the gauntlet with his 2002 book, 'The Fabrication of Aboriginal
> History', Vol. 1. Had it remained uncorroborated or un-debated, some
> readers might have been prone to suspect it was just another author with
> a penchant for controversy. However the requisite peer review debate has
> not only since occurred, but much of it publicly in the mainstream
> press. A momento of that debate is a recent book of articles called
> 'Whitewash', edited by Robert Manne (by coincidence a former editor of
> Quadrant), during which a number of historians have responded to
> Windschuttle's claims regarding the lax standards of historical research
> he accused some of them of practicing in Australia. Manne's book is
> partly a record of those live debates, including one at the University
> of Tasmania in May this year. Keith Windschuttle summarises:
>
> "...one of the senior figures of Australian historiography, Geoffrey
> Bolton, who is no supporter of mine, said in his summarising remarks
> that historians should stop using the term "genocide" in Australian
> history because the evidence is not there to support the charge. I
> would hope that, despite all our differences, Robert Manne would
> agree with me on this one. Nowhere does his own book ['Whitewash']
> attempt to make a case for the genocide of the Tasmanian Aborigines.
> So, despite all the sound and fury raised by this debate since last
> November, we have actually made some progress. The case for genocide
> in Tasmania has not been sustained. Indeed its principal advocates
> have walked away from the topic, unwilling to defend it. So, my
> first thesis, there was no genocide in Tasmania, I now take as proven
> by default." - Keith Windschuttle (Quadrant, Oct 2000), p. 12.

Should have been (Quadrant, Oct 2003), p. 12.

[...]
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Neville Duguid



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 10:57 am    Post subject: Re: Genocide of Australian Aborigines successfully debunked Reply with quote

Moses Lim wrote:

> Neville Duguid wrote:
>
> ----snipped----
>
> interesting articles but a little bit hard to reconcile with diary
> entries from that era ...

in his scholarly tome 'The Fabrication of Aboriginal History' Vol 1
(which is specific to Tasmania, 1803-1847), Windschuttle investigates
many of those diaries more meticulously than many of his predecessors
whom, it appears, merely scanned them looking for the most juicy bits to
quote. He also takes a closer look at the formerly infamous Black Line
of 1830-31, during which soldiers and militia tried to make contact with
Aborigines hiding in the bush. Although it was unsuccessful in its
presumed goal of 'rounding them up', it succeeded quite admirably in
'sending them a message' (if I may interject a more contemporary
phrase), according to Windschuttle's book.

> also u r talking only of tasmania ..

Didn't read it all, did you?

Of the three Quadrant articles I quoted from, the first was specific to
Tasmania, the second to the eastern half of continental Australia, and
the third to a post-1960s view of Australia shared by too many of its
historians and others who rely on them for information about Australia's
past. It seems that their 'long march through the institutions' left
them in unchallenged possession with the usual long-term consequences.
Removed from healthy competition, they made a 'dying race' out of
themselves, even as they pontifiicated about others who managed to end
up in similar predicaments in the past. Considering that learning the
'lessons of the past' is intended to innoculate modern society against
the perils of blindly repeating them in the future, Windschuttle's
expose does have the potential to leave some of our historians looking
rather foolish in the eyes of their students, not to mention other
professionals who relied on them for accurate information and
professional advice about Australia's past.
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Moses Lim



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 5:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Genocide of Australian Aborigines successfully debunked Reply with quote

Neville Duguid wrote:
> Moses Lim wrote:
>
>>Neville Duguid wrote
>>
>>----snipped----

> Didn't read it all, did you?

iīll be honest ... i didnīt read all of it cos it was simply too long
and i was starting to get bored after the first bits... sorry..

i had another closer read .. albeit not as close as u probably like me
to .. and i still have difficulties reconciling the quadrant stuff with
what is known from diary entries from that period ...

*shrug* i m no student of history ... but i do know that aboriginals in
this country have lost their lands ... how one chooses to make up for it
in this modern day and age is obviously left to oneīs conscience
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Coat and Tie



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Genocide of Australian Aborigines successfully debunked Reply with quote

On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 13:10:46 GMT, Moses Lim
wrote:

>Neville Duguid wrote:
>> Moses Lim wrote:
>>
>>>Neville Duguid wrote
>>>
>>>----snipped----
>
>> Didn't read it all, did you?
>
>iīll be honest ... i didnīt read all of it cos it was simply too long
>and i was starting to get bored after the first bits... sorry..
>
>i had another closer read .. albeit not as close as u probably like me
>to .. and i still have difficulties reconciling the quadrant stuff with
>what is known from diary entries from that period ...
>
>*shrug* i m no student of history ... but i do know that aboriginals in
>this country have lost their lands ... how one chooses to make up for it
> in this modern day and age is obviously left to oneīs conscience

Land gets shifted around all the time. The rights to use land are also
always fluid.

Go for a bush walk and imagine you were back then. Their would have
been spots worth camping in as they were close to water, out of the
prevailing winds, and had access to shelter from rain.

A bloke turns up with stuff he nrings in rather than a spear to take
stuff out. What you going to think?

Does he want to harm me? If yes well then I had better harm him. If no
then he has some stuff I like the look of.

You have to remember sheep and cattle was more tucker.

And alchohol was never far away in those days.

Just becase one more bloke and a few head of cattle or sheep turn up
doesn't mean the local scene changes all that much.

The timber cutters would come next and they'd want to pick the eyes
out of rainforest timbers. They didn't go in with buklldozers. It was
hand stuff. Felling one tree was a project.

Very gradual transition, and transition that was accomodated by the
aboriginals.

Yes there were blues, barnies ...

And the aboriginal world changed as much as the settlor world changed.

And in hindsight many aboriginal ancestors wish they could have their
name on land title deeds to cash in just like everyone else. But they
were happy with the stuff the settlors bought.

Many aboriginals joined the settlors ways, and just as the settlors
had to comply with the force of law that sat above their heads so did
the aboriginal folks alive at the time.

You worl well in the system in vogue at the place and time of your
life and you have land. You work stupid and you don't. That universal
law knows no boundary of your ancestory or where you enter the game.

Aboriginal folks want land for nothing. Well don't we all.
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George W. Frost



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 1:52 am    Post subject: Re: Genocide of Australian Aborigines successfully debunked Reply with quote

wish you would learn to spell properly.


"Coat and Tie" wrote in message@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 13:10:46 GMT, Moses Lim
> wrote:
>
> >Neville Duguid wrote:
> >> Moses Lim wrote:
> >>
> >>>Neville Duguid wrote
> >>>
> >>>----snipped----
> >
> >> Didn't read it all, did you?
> >
> >iīll be honest ... i didnīt read all of it cos it was simply too long
> >and i was starting to get bored after the first bits... sorry..
> >
> >i had another closer read .. albeit not as close as u probably like me
> >to .. and i still have difficulties reconciling the quadrant stuff with
> >what is known from diary entries from that period ...
> >
> >*shrug* i m no student of history ... but i do know that aboriginals in
> >this country have lost their lands ... how one chooses to make up for it
> > in this modern day and age is obviously left to oneīs conscience
>
> Land gets shifted around all the time. The rights to use land are also
> always fluid.
>
> Go for a bush walk and imagine you were back then. Their would have
> been spots worth camping in as they were close to water, out of the
> prevailing winds, and had access to shelter from rain.
>
> A bloke turns up with stuff he nrings in rather than a spear to take
> stuff out. What you going to think?
>
> Does he want to harm me? If yes well then I had better harm him. If no
> then he has some stuff I like the look of.
>
> You have to remember sheep and cattle was more tucker.
>
> And alchohol was never far away in those days.
>
> Just becase one more bloke and a few head of cattle or sheep turn up
> doesn't mean the local scene changes all that much.
>
> The timber cutters would come next and they'd want to pick the eyes
> out of rainforest timbers. They didn't go in with buklldozers. It was
> hand stuff. Felling one tree was a project.
>
> Very gradual transition, and transition that was accomodated by the
> aboriginals.
>
> Yes there were blues, barnies ...
>
> And the aboriginal world changed as much as the settlor world changed.
>
> And in hindsight many aboriginal ancestors wish they could have their
> name on land title deeds to cash in just like everyone else. But they
> were happy with the stuff the settlors bought.
>
> Many aboriginals joined the settlors ways, and just as the settlors
> had to comply with the force of law that sat above their heads so did
> the aboriginal folks alive at the time.
>
> You worl well in the system in vogue at the place and time of your
> life and you have land. You work stupid and you don't. That universal
> law knows no boundary of your ancestory or where you enter the game.
>
> Aboriginal folks want land for nothing. Well don't we all.
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William J. Wolfe



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 10:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Genocide of Australian Aborigines successfully debunked Reply with quote

Moses Lim wrote in message news:...
> Neville Duguid wrote:
> > Moses Lim wrote:
> >
> >>Neville Duguid wrote
> >>
> >>----snipped----
>
> > Didn't read it all, did you?
>
> iīll be honest ... i didnīt read all of it cos it was simply too long
> and i was starting to get bored after the first bits... sorry..
>
> i had another closer read .. albeit not as close as u probably like me
> to .. and i still have difficulties reconciling the quadrant stuff with
> what is known from diary entries from that period ...
>
> *shrug* i m no student of history ... but i do know that aboriginals in
> this country have lost their lands ...

Which is a load of old cobblers, since true tribal aboriginals claim
to be only caretakers of the land and not owners.

how one chooses to make up for it
> in this modern day and age is obviously left to oneīs conscience

So how about you giving your backyard to the local indigine tribe.
Don't moan and bitch about settlers of 150 years ago trying to earn a
feed for their wives and children.
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Neville Duguid



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:18 am    Post subject: Re: Genocide of Australian Aborigines successfully debunked Reply with quote

Seppo Renfors wrote:

> Moses Lim wrote:
> >
> > William J. Wolfe wrote:
> > > Moses Lim wrote in message
> > > news:...
> > >
> > >>Neville Duguid wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>Moses Lim wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>>Neville Duguid wrote
> > >>>>
> > >>>>----snipped----
>
> Having looked back in the thread, I note that Nev is still pushing
> that bloody Windschuttle's revisionist propaganda - no less abhorrent
> than Irvin's revisionism. The man (Windschuttle that is - though it
> probably applies to both) is a fraud. I have proven his revisionism to
> be nothing more than clap-trap fabrications.

You have? When? Where? All you do is classic ad hom. You avoid
responding to the issues raised by dreaming up claptrap about the author
instead.

> Windschuttle is no
> scholar, never has been nor will he ever be. He hasn't published in
> any peer reviewed papers - because he couldn't get them published in
> such places as his yarns don't stand scrutiny.

Since the "peer review" of history in Australia is monopolised by those
Windschuttle is accusing of unprofessional standards, that is hardly
surprising.

Now watch as Seppo once more indulges in the 'pushing' and 'revisionism'
he assumes motivates everyone else, simply because that is the only use
he has discovered for his own forked tongue:

> Neville is well aware of this, and has had it demonstrated to him. But
> Nev, is a person who's has advocated SLAVERY as a "solution" to the
> Aborigine's problems!! Neville is a supporter of One Nation and their
> racist policies and has donated funds to Pauline to fight the charges
> of fraud,

This from someone who, I understand, has set himself up as a wood-duck
lawyer in aus.legal. No sense of justice at all. He denigrates people
for attempting to defend themselves under the law he feigns such
devotion to.

> for the criminal act which she is currently serving time. It
> is part of Neville's POLITICAL agendas to propagate the revisionism by
> Windschuttle!! It should NOT be in either a history OR an education
> group - and should be left in the political forums.

That is a classic Seppo drop-catch. Anything to do with Aborigines,
according to Seppo, is politics, not history, even if it happened 200
years ago. Makes it easier to revise on the fly, hey Sepp?

> So much for the birth of this thread.

And so much for its attempted cot death at Seppo's hand.
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Neville Duguid



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Genocide of Australian Aborigines successfully debunked Reply with quote

Roderick M ODonnell wrote:

> Windschuttle's propaganda appears no worse than some of the "black armband"
> stuff that has been around for years. He is merely taking the lowest
> possible number of deliberate killings as his preferred figure.

Windschuttle's figures differ from other historians because they are not
estimates, but a count of verified casualties of inter-racial violence
in Tasmania during the period under consideration. I think the actual
figure is bound to be higher, but it is impossible to arrive at a higher
figure by anything other than speculation. Other historians OTOH have
typically arrived at their contrary estimates by guesswork, then worked
backward from there, filling in the gaps by misrepresenting or even
inventing the 'evidence' they needed to confer a veneer of authenticity
on their revisionist output. Worst case techniques included
misrepresenting difficult-to-check records, giving unquestioning
credence to exaggerated accounts, and multiply counting different
reports of the same incident as if they all referred to separate
incidents.

One is left with a question mark over what happened to the Tasmanian
Aborigines between one of the first recorded (and highly exaggerated)
acts of violence which involved a great horde of Aborigines gathered in
a single small area, to a few decades later when there appeared to be at
most a few thousand Aborigines on the entire island.

Windschuttle's theories are quite feasible, and have the advantage that
they are supported with solid documentary evidence. That does not mean
they are infallible. I personally found it hard to believe that the
population could have declined so drastically without any apparent
explanation for such a scale of apparent population decline. However,
given Windschuttle's overview of the evidence, it is equally hard to
believe those apparently missing numbers could have been systematically
slaughtered without leaving any traces in the documentary records. Such
records as have been combed looking for such evidence, tended to
multiply repeat and often exaggerate much more trivial incidents
regardless of how such bragadocio might have incriminated their authors.
Indeed, there was a tendency to brag about rather than conceal
information about such incidents as actually occurred among the lower
orders.

That is why I also quoted from the second Quadrant article, Robert
Murray's review of Judy Campbell's book about the impact of disease on
Aboriginal populations in mainland Australia. The impact of disease on
Indigenous populations remote from 'Old World' civilizations, whose
denser populations give rise to pandemics, has long been know with
respect to the Americas and the Pacific in general. Tasmania's
population had been even more removed and for much longer than even the
population of mainland Australia from such sources of infection. Not
only smallpox, but diseases we would regard as relatively benign, such
as the common cold, might have killed them like flies.

Whereas that is cause for deep regret, I don't see what could have been
done about it other than to allow the Aboriginal populations to acquire
immunity by natural means similar to the way European, Asian and African
populations had also built up their greater levels of resistance.

I also note the incongruity of those who most typically believe
Australia should be 'open' to the rest of the world, including boat
people from anywhere, and deplore such controls as 'quarantine' [ref
third Quadrant article]. They also tend to sound suspiciously like the
same crowd who want to accuse others of a 'crime' for the number of
Aboriginal deaths that occurred from lack of quarantine controls during
someone else's shift. Such lack of caution, like everything else such
people spruik without bothering to engage their brains, is, of course,
both self-contradictory and the real cause of what they so love to blame
others for. If 'freedom of expression' ultimately leads to nothing
better than fashionable bouts of mass hysteria, then could those
long-gone Tasmanian Aborigines also have felt the ill-effects of "too
much of a good thing"?
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Roderick M ODonnell



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 10:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Genocide of Australian Aborigines successfully debunked Reply with quote

"Seppo Renfors" wrote in message@.ollis.net.au...
>
>
> Moses Lim wrote:
> >
> > William J. Wolfe wrote:
> > > Moses Lim wrote in message
news:...
> > >
> > >>Neville Duguid wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>Moses Lim wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>>Neville Duguid wrote
> > >>>>
> > >>>>----snipped----
>
> Having looked back in the thread, I note that Nev is still pushing
> that bloody Windschuttle's revisionist propaganda - no less abhorrent
> than Irvin's revisionism. The man (Windschuttle that is - though it
> probably applies to both) is a fraud. I have proven his revisionism to
> be nothing more than clap-trap fabrications. Windschuttle is no
> scholar, never has been nor will he ever be. He hasn't published in
> any peer reviewed papers - because he couldn't get them published in
> such places as his yarns don't stand scrutiny.
>
Windschuttle's propaganda appears no worse than some of the "black armband"
stuff that has been around for years. He is merely taking the lowest
possible number of deliberate killings as his preferred figure.

> Neville is well aware of this, and has had it demonstrated to him. But
> Nev, is a person who's has advocated SLAVERY as a "solution" to the
> Aborigine's problems!!


SLAVERY is probably better to be advocated as a solution to the problem of
dole bludgers in Aus.

Those who go on the dole could be left alone to look for work for six months
or so, then if they cannot find work they could be sold on the slave market
for a six month contract, then they could be freed into looking for work
for a further six months.
The funds raised could go towards continuing social security payments for
the truly needy.

This would not affect Aborigines too much as the majority of them would have
trouble raising a bid at a slave auction.

Those terminally hopeless types who could not fit into any of these
guidelines could perhaps be put on a boat & be exported to one of the
countries that sends us all those refugees. This might even solve two
problems at once.
>
> So much for the birth of this thread.
>
> > a load of old cobblers,

is the main substance of Seppo's writings,

RMOD
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Aloysius Jones



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:27 am    Post subject: Re: Genocide of Australian Aborigines successfully debunked Reply with quote

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 09:22:46 +1000, Scott Steel
wrote:

>On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 09:14:05 GMT, nevilled@bigpond.net.au
>(Neville Duguid) wrote:
>
>>Roderick M ODonnell wrote:
>>
>>> Windschuttle's propaganda appears no worse than some of the "black armband"
>>> stuff that has been around for years. He is merely taking the lowest
>>> possible number of deliberate killings as his preferred figure.
>
>Spot on.

I just can't see how it is propaganda to point out that Professor
Lyndell Ryan (Head of the School of Humanities University of
Newcastle) faked her research, fabricated her footnotes, and then have
Ryan admit that she did this.

I also cannot see how when it is pointed out that a historian has
deliberately falsified their research, as Lyndall Ryan admitted doing,
that any criticism of this falsfication is called 'Hansonite' .

From my perspective, one side of this argument falsifies their
research and admits doing it but argues that they are in the right
because the other side is 'reactionary' and 'Hansonite' to point it
out.

This is how the looney left such as Ryan, Reynolds and Manne engage in
academic argument. You point out they are lying. They admit they are
lying, but they argue that they are right because there is something
wrong with anyone who points out that they are lying. No wonder the
humanities faculties in Australia are dying.
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Coat and Tie



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2003 8:13 am    Post subject: Re: Genocide of Australian Aborigines successfully debunked Reply with quote

Haven't noticed in life that spelling capability has anything to do
with value of a persons contribution.

But go right ahead and pull your dick on the topic.

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:52:49 GMT, "George W. Frost"
wrote:

>wish you would learn to spell properly.
>
>
>"Coat and Tie" wrote in message
>@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 13:10:46 GMT, Moses Lim
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Neville Duguid wrote:
>> >> Moses Lim wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>Neville Duguid wrote
>> >>>
>> >>>----snipped----
>> >
>> >> Didn't read it all, did you?
>> >
>> >iīll be honest ... i didnīt read all of it cos it was simply too long
>> >and i was starting to get bored after the first bits... sorry..
>> >
>> >i had another closer read .. albeit not as close as u probably like me
>> >to .. and i still have difficulties reconciling the quadrant stuff with
>> >what is known from diary entries from that period ...
>> >
>> >*shrug* i m no student of history ... but i do know that aboriginals in
>> >this country have lost their lands ... how one chooses to make up for it
>> > in this modern day and age is obviously left to oneīs conscience
>>
>> Land gets shifted around all the time. The rights to use land are also
>> always fluid.
>>
>> Go for a bush walk and imagine you were back then. Their would have
>> been spots worth camping in as they were close to water, out of the
>> prevailing winds, and had access to shelter from rain.
>>
>> A bloke turns up with stuff he nrings in rather than a spear to take
>> stuff out. What you going to think?
>>
>> Does he want to harm me? If yes well then I had better harm him. If no
>> then he has some stuff I like the look of.
>>
>> You have to remember sheep and cattle was more tucker.
>>
>> And alchohol was never far away in those days.
>>
>> Just becase one more bloke and a few head of cattle or sheep turn up
>> doesn't mean the local scene changes all that much.
>>
>> The timber cutters would come next and they'd want to pick the eyes
>> out of rainforest timbers. They didn't go in with buklldozers. It was
>> hand stuff. Felling one tree was a project.
>>
>> Very gradual transition, and transition that was accomodated by the
>> aboriginals.
>>
>> Yes there were blues, barnies ...
>>
>> And the aboriginal world changed as much as the settlor world changed.
>>
>> And in hindsight many aboriginal ancestors wish they could have their
>> name on land title deeds to cash in just like everyone else. But they
>> were happy with the stuff the settlors bought.
>>
>> Many aboriginals joined the settlors ways, and just as the settlors
>> had to comply with the force of law that sat above their heads so did
>> the aboriginal folks alive at the time.
>>
>> You worl well in the system in vogue at the place and time of your
>> life and you have land. You work stupid and you don't. That universal
>> law knows no boundary of your ancestory or where you enter the game.
>>
>> Aboriginal folks want land for nothing. Well don't we all.
>
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Neville Duguid



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2003 8:51 am    Post subject: Re: Genocide of Australian Aborigines successfully debunked Reply with quote

Scott Steel wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 09:14:05 GMT, nevilled@bigpond.net.au
> (Neville Duguid) wrote:
>
> >Roderick M ODonnell wrote:
> >
> >> Windschuttle's propaganda appears no worse than some of the "black armband"
> >> stuff that has been around for years. He is merely taking the lowest
> >> possible number of deliberate killings as his preferred figure.
>
> Spot on.
>
> >Windschuttle's figures differ from other historians because they are not
> >estimates, but a count of verified casualties of inter-racial violence
> >in Tasmania during the period under consideration.
>
> Taken from the primary (only?) source of newspaper reports.
>
> Does that not strike you as being problematic?

I would have to read Windschuttle's Vol.1 again to be sure of the
details, but I am of the distinct impression Windschuttle exhaustively
read whatever was available, with perhaps a bias towards those sources
favoured by the other historians he found himself increasingly checking
up on towards the end of his research. IOW any ultimate bias would have
been in favour of whatever straws other historians had clutched in their
attempts to bolster their contrary pov. With newspaper articles,
Windschuttle's typical response was to cross-check with other sources.
In that way he found that a lot of the 'massacres' were no more than
different renditions of the same story, sometimes having 'grown' in the
process of repitition to the point where some of the other historians
could almost be forgiven for failing to recognize them as harking back
to the same incident.

Given that many such reports had all the hallmarks of 'ripping yarns',
one is left wondering why they all had their genesis in so relatively
few real incidents, rather than drawing on a wider variety of stories
one would expect to have been in circulation among the early settlers if
hunting Aborigines been as commonplace as so many seemed keen to impute.
The simplest explanation is that those few dramatic incidents were
'news' for precisely the same reason things make the news today, i.e.,
the real incidents they were based on were unusual rather than
commonplace events.

> [...]
>
> > I think the actual
> >figure is bound to be higher,
>
> Exactly, which is why this whole debate is little more than
> an argument about the length of a piece of string.

What you preceive as "this whole debate" is only one minor and
diversionary aspect to anyone with a genuine interest in the history of
early Australia. That is, if their interest is genuinely focussed on the
past, rather than merely mining it for whatever serves to promote their
political agenda in the present.

> One bunch of cultural warrior rodents using spurious
> bullshit to fight another bunch of cultural warrior rodents
> doing exactly the same thing.
>
> I cant believe the country has descended to the level of
> thinking that a shitfight between Robert Manne and Keith
> Windshuttle is even remotely interesting when neither of
> them are spearing each other to death.

Amazingly reminiscent of what passes for typical and normal debate in
aus.politics, wouldn't you think?

> [...]
>
> >Windschuttle's theories are quite feasible, and have the advantage that
> >they are supported with solid documentary evidence.
>
> [...]
>
> Which brings us to another point about all this nonense.Its
> not about evidence (if it was you couldnt say that basing a
> death rate on newspaper articles was anything remotely
> close to being "solid", anymore than Manning Clarke plucking
> a number from a random orifice was), its about belief
> systems.Windshuttle and Manne are little more than proxies
> through which two ideological camps that hate each others
> guts are fighting.
>
> The problem with both groups is that ideology isnt a very
> good substitute for thought.
>
> It even makes for a dull circus.

Given that I recall you defending the style of one poster who
specialises in turning attempts at serious debate into circus, I'll take
that as your admission you prefer not to look any more closely at what
you may already have glimpsed lurking beneath the surface of this
particular issue Wink
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Scott Steel



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2003 1:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Genocide of Australian Aborigines successfully debunked Reply with quote

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 09:14:05 GMT, nevilled@bigpond.net.au
(Neville Duguid) wrote:

>Roderick M ODonnell wrote:
>
>> Windschuttle's propaganda appears no worse than some of the "black armband"
>> stuff that has been around for years. He is merely taking the lowest
>> possible number of deliberate killings as his preferred figure.

Spot on.

>Windschuttle's figures differ from other historians because they are not
>estimates, but a count of verified casualties of inter-racial violence
>in Tasmania during the period under consideration.

Taken from the primary (only?) source of newspaper reports.

Does that not strike you as being problematic?

[...]

> I think the actual
>figure is bound to be higher,

Exactly, which is why this whole debate is little more than
an argument about the length of a piece of string.

One bunch of cultural warrior rodents using spurious
bullshit to fight another bunch of cultural warrior rodents
doing exactly the same thing.

I cant believe the country has descended to the level of
thinking that a shitfight between Robert Manne and Keith
Windshuttle is even remotely interesting when neither of
them are spearing each other to death.

[...]

>Windschuttle's theories are quite feasible, and have the advantage that
>they are supported with solid documentary evidence.

[...]

Which brings us to another point about all this nonense.Its
not about evidence (if it was you couldnt say that basing a
death rate on newspaper articles was anything remotely
close to being "solid", anymore than Manning Clarke plucking
a number from a random orifice was), its about belief
systems.Windshuttle and Manne are little more than proxies
through which two ideological camps that hate each others
guts are fighting.

The problem with both groups is that ideology isnt a very
good substitute for thought.

It even makes for a dull circus.

Scott Steel

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