What is a successful school?'

smilverton · Joined: 25 Feb 2008 Posts: 8

thought it would be interesting to ask this question as it seems that
the answer would be different depending on which side of the fence you
are standing on. I suspect that the criteria developed by the parent
and student body would be considerably different in some respects to
that of a teacher. On the same hand i would also expect some
crossover. What do you think makes a successful school?

Archived from group: k12>chat>teacher

Rowley · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 499

smilverton@gmail.com wrote:
> thought it would be interesting to ask this question as it seems that
> the answer would be different depending on which side of the fence you
> are standing on. I suspect that the criteria developed by the parent
> and student body would be considerably different in some respects to
> that of a teacher.

You just named three groups (parents, students, and teachers) who really
don't have all that much input in how schools operate.

> On the same hand i would also expect some
> crossover. What do you think makes a successful school?

Who wants to know and why?

Martin

smilverton · Joined: 25 Feb 2008 Posts: 8

On Feb 25, 11:11 am, Rowley wrote:
> smilver...@gmail.com wrote:
> > thought it would be interesting to ask this question as it seems that
> > the answer would be different depending on which side of the fence you
> > are standing on. I suspect that the criteria developed by the parent
> > and student body would be considerably different in some respects to
> > that of a teacher.
>
> You just named three groups (parents, students, and teachers) who really
> don't have all that much input in how schools operate.
>
> > On the same hand i would also expect some
> > crossover. What do you think makes a successful school?
>
> Who wants to know and why?
>
> Martin

Hi Martin
i disagree. These groups are the stakeholders of a school. They set
the overall tone, atmosphere and culture. A principal merely guides
and directs the community. If the community do not have a feeling of
ownership and input, then the school will not succeed.
Steve

PS
I would like to know because i am developing a strategic plan for my
school soon and i thought that it would be interesting to gather some
ideas before working with my school community to get started.

smilverton · Joined: 25 Feb 2008 Posts: 8

On Feb 25, 11:21 am, "smilver...@gmail.com"
wrote:
> On Feb 25, 11:11 am, Rowley wrote:
>
>
>
> > smilver...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > thought it would be interesting to ask this question as it seems that
> > > the answer would be different depending on which side of the fence you
> > > are standing on. I suspect that the criteria developed by the parent
> > > and student body would be considerably different in some respects to
> > > that of a teacher.
>
> > You just named three groups (parents, students, and teachers) who really
> > don't have all that much input in how schools operate.
>
> > > On the same hand i would also expect some
> > > crossover. What do you think makes a successful school?
>
> > Who wants to know and why?
>
> > Martin
>
> Hi Martin
> i disagree. These groups are the stakeholders of a school. They set
> the overall tone, atmosphere and culture. A principal merely guides
> and directs the community. If the community do not have a feeling of
> ownership and input, then the school will not succeed.
> Steve
>
> PS
> I would like to know because i am developing a strategic plan for my
> school soon and i thought that it would be interesting to gather some
> ideas before working with my school community to get started.

Have a look at my group. You are all welcome to join.

http://groups.google.com/group/principals-desk

teachrmama · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 415

wrote in message @64g2000hsw.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 25, 11:11 am, Rowley wrote:
>> smilver...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > thought it would be interesting to ask this question as it seems that
>> > the answer would be different depending on which side of the fence you
>> > are standing on. I suspect that the criteria developed by the parent
>> > and student body would be considerably different in some respects to
>> > that of a teacher.
>>
>> You just named three groups (parents, students, and teachers) who really
>> don't have all that much input in how schools operate.
>>
>> > On the same hand i would also expect some
>> > crossover. What do you think makes a successful school?
>>
>> Who wants to know and why?
>>
>> Martin
>
>
> Hi Martin
> i disagree. These groups are the stakeholders of a school. They set
> the overall tone, atmosphere and culture. A principal merely guides
> and directs the community. If the community do not have a feeling of
> ownership and input, then the school will not succeed.

Perhaps you, as a principal, merely guide. But not all of us are fortunate
enough to have principals that merely guide. At the school where I have
been teaching for 10 years, the principal goes out of his way to make sure
that factions remain--so that he can have everyone come to him to solve the
"problems" that he, himself, creates. He is a master of divide and conquer.
For myself, I stay in my classroom as much as possible because I do not want
to be involved in the silly politics--I am there to teach and want nothing
to do with the political foolishness that keeps things outside the classroom
so chaotic!

Rowley · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 499

smilverton@gmail.com wrote:
> On Feb 25, 11:11 am, Rowley wrote:
>
>>smilver...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>thought it would be interesting to ask this question as it seems that
>>>the answer would be different depending on which side of the fence you
>>>are standing on. I suspect that the criteria developed by the parent
>>>and student body would be considerably different in some respects to
>>>that of a teacher.
>>
>>You just named three groups (parents, students, and teachers) who really
>>don't have all that much input in how schools operate.
>>
>>
>>>On the same hand i would also expect some
>>>crossover. What do you think makes a successful school?
>>
>>Who wants to know and why?
>>
>>Martin
>
>
>
> Hi Martin
> i disagree.

Feel free to do so.

> These groups are the stakeholders of a school.

They might be stakeholders, but IMO they are non-voting stakeholders.
Around these parts, the school board, superintendent, and campus
principals & administrators determine how things work (or don't work).

> They set
> the overall tone, atmosphere and culture.

Which can cause all sorts of problems if that tone is in conflict with
what the PTB (powers-that-be) has deemed appropriate.

> A principal merely guides
> and directs the community.

Around here, the community pretty much ignores the school and about the
only participating is their paying the local taxes that fund it. Some
parents do attempt to participate to some extent, but that gradually
tapers off when their kids enter high school.

> If the community do not have a feeling of
> ownership and input, then the school will not succeed.

Then I guess by that criteria, ours aren't successful.....

> Steve
>
> PS
> I would like to know because i am developing a strategic plan for my
> school soon and i thought that it would be interesting to gather some
> ideas before working with my school community to get started.

Keep in mind that this is the Usenet - which means there are people from
all walks of life (not all are teachers) participating here and from all
sorts of places (the US mainly). I'm in the central part of Texas.

Martin

Rowley · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 499

smilverton@gmail.com wrote:

> On Feb 25, 11:21 am, "smilver...@gmail.com"
> wrote:
>
>>On Feb 25, 11:11 am, Rowley wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>smilver...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>thought it would be interesting to ask this question as it seems that
>>>>the answer would be different depending on which side of the fence you
>>>>are standing on. I suspect that the criteria developed by the parent
>>>>and student body would be considerably different in some respects to
>>>>that of a teacher.
>>
>>>You just named three groups (parents, students, and teachers) who really
>>>don't have all that much input in how schools operate.
>>
>>>>On the same hand i would also expect some
>>>>crossover. What do you think makes a successful school?
>>
>>>Who wants to know and why?
>>
>>>Martin
>>
>>Hi Martin
>>i disagree. These groups are the stakeholders of a school. They set
>>the overall tone, atmosphere and culture. A principal merely guides
>>and directs the community. If the community do not have a feeling of
>>ownership and input, then the school will not succeed.
>>Steve
>>
>>PS
>>I would like to know because i am developing a strategic plan for my
>>school soon and i thought that it would be interesting to gather some
>>ideas before working with my school community to get started.
>
>
>
> Have a look at my group. You are all welcome to join.
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/principals-desk

Look? Join? Sorry, not really interested in participating in any of the
google groups. This usenet group is enough for me.

Martin

stevericks · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 141

Steve,

From looking at the posts thus far, you have already learned a few things.
Teachers and parents must feel that they have a say and can influence
outcomes. That doesn't happen everywhere, as some of the posts indicate.
It does happen some places, however.

Success will likely be made up of a number of factors. Preparing students
with the knowledge and skills to lead successful lives will probably be part
of your outcome. How this is accomplished -and what is meant by success
will all have to be examined.

I commend you for taking the time to see what teachers think.

If you haven't seen the short ( 7 min) video-Shift Happens -or if your
faculty is unaware of it, then showing it might be a good way to get your
planning started. That is probably what I would do.
Steve
wrote in message @d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> thought it would be interesting to ask this question as it seems that
> the answer would be different depending on which side of the fence you
> are standing on. I suspect that the criteria developed by the parent
> and student body would be considerably different in some respects to
> that of a teacher. On the same hand i would also expect some
> crossover. What do you think makes a successful school?

Rowley · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 499

The guy that created the powerpoint show (assuming this is the "Shift
Happens" film you mentioned) updated it this past year.

http://thefischbowl.blogspot.com/2006/08/did-you-know.html

Martin

stevericks wrote:
> Steve,
>
> From looking at the posts thus far, you have already learned a few things.
> Teachers and parents must feel that they have a say and can influence
> outcomes. That doesn't happen everywhere, as some of the posts indicate.
> It does happen some places, however.
>
> Success will likely be made up of a number of factors. Preparing students
> with the knowledge and skills to lead successful lives will probably be part
> of your outcome. How this is accomplished -and what is meant by success
> will all have to be examined.
>
> I commend you for taking the time to see what teachers think.
>
> If you haven't seen the short ( 7 min) video-Shift Happens -or if your
> faculty is unaware of it, then showing it might be a good way to get your
> planning started. That is probably what I would do.
> Steve
> wrote in message
> @d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
>>thought it would be interesting to ask this question as it seems that
>>the answer would be different depending on which side of the fence you
>>are standing on. I suspect that the criteria developed by the parent
>>and student body would be considerably different in some respects to
>>that of a teacher. On the same hand i would also expect some
>>crossover. What do you think makes a successful school?
>
>
>

smilverton · Joined: 25 Feb 2008 Posts: 8

On Feb 25, 12:11 pm, Rowley wrote:
> smilver...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Feb 25, 11:11 am, Rowley wrote:
>
> >>smilver...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >>>thought it would be interesting to ask this question as it seems that
> >>>the answer would be different depending on which side of the fence you
> >>>are standing on. I suspect that the criteria developed by the parent
> >>>and student body would be considerably different in some respects to
> >>>that of a teacher.
>
> >>You just named three groups (parents, students, and teachers) who really
> >>don't have all that much input in how schools operate.
>
> >>>On the same hand i would also expect some
> >>>crossover. What do you think makes a successful school?
>
> >>Who wants to know and why?
>
> >>Martin
>
> > Hi Martin
> > i disagree.
>
> Feel free to do so.
>
> > These groups are the stakeholders of a school.
>
> They might be stakeholders, but IMO they are non-voting stakeholders.
> Around these parts, the school board, superintendent, and campus
> principals & administrators determine how things work (or don't work).
>
> > They set
> > the overall tone, atmosphere and culture.
>
> Which can cause all sorts of problems if that tone is in conflict with
> what the PTB (powers-that-be) has deemed appropriate.
>
> > A principal merely guides
> > and directs the community.
>
> Around here, the community pretty much ignores the school and about the
> only participating is their paying the local taxes that fund it. Some
> parents do attempt to participate to some extent, but that gradually
> tapers off when their kids enter high school.
>
> > If the community do not have a feeling of
> > ownership and input, then the school will not succeed.
>
> Then I guess by that criteria, ours aren't successful.....
>
> > Steve
>
> > PS
> > I would like to know because i am developing a strategic plan for my
> > school soon and i thought that it would be interesting to gather some
> > ideas before working with my school community to get started.
>
> Keep in mind that this is the Usenet - which means there are people from
> all walks of life (not all are teachers) participating here and from all
> sorts of places (the US mainly). I'm in the central part of Texas.
>
> Martin

It is interesting to see the differences in the systems. We in
Victoria and I dare say Australia, have a system where by the
principal and school council work together to implement big picture
plans. The staff and school community are consulted about yearly goals
and priority spending. The teachers also have the responsibility of
managing curriculum areas including the budgets. parents are welcomed
into schools. It is not uncommon to have a few parents each day wander
into the staff room and make themselves a coffee while waiting for
their kids to be dismissed or even in the morning after school
starts.This adds a positive atmosphere toth school. Parents chat
freely with teachers before and after school, and not always about the
kids.

obviously, there are different degrees of this evident in different
schools, but on a whole it is a common situation. The Victorian
education department is renowned around the world for its
transformational change. I believe that this arrangement in schools is
imparitive for a school to function smoothly and for everyone to have
collective ownership of the school and student issues.

Steve
http://groups.google.com/group/principals-desk

Rowley · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 499

smilverton@gmail.com wrote:
> On Feb 25, 12:11 pm, Rowley wrote:
>
>>smilver...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>On Feb 25, 11:11 am, Rowley wrote:
>>
>>>>smilver...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>>>thought it would be interesting to ask this question as it seems that
>>>>>the answer would be different depending on which side of the fence you
>>>>>are standing on. I suspect that the criteria developed by the parent
>>>>>and student body would be considerably different in some respects to
>>>>>that of a teacher.
>>
>>>>You just named three groups (parents, students, and teachers) who really
>>>>don't have all that much input in how schools operate.
>>
>>>>>On the same hand i would also expect some
>>>>>crossover. What do you think makes a successful school?
>>
>>>>Who wants to know and why?
>>
>>>>Martin
>>
>>>Hi Martin
>>>i disagree.
>>
>>Feel free to do so.
>>
>>
>>>These groups are the stakeholders of a school.
>>
>>They might be stakeholders, but IMO they are non-voting stakeholders.
>>Around these parts, the school board, superintendent, and campus
>>principals & administrators determine how things work (or don't work).
>>
>>
>>>They set
>>>the overall tone, atmosphere and culture.
>>
>>Which can cause all sorts of problems if that tone is in conflict with
>>what the PTB (powers-that-be) has deemed appropriate.
>>
>>
>>>A principal merely guides
>>>and directs the community.
>>
>>Around here, the community pretty much ignores the school and about the
>>only participating is their paying the local taxes that fund it. Some
>>parents do attempt to participate to some extent, but that gradually
>>tapers off when their kids enter high school.
>>
>>
>>>If the community do not have a feeling of
>>>ownership and input, then the school will not succeed.
>>
>>Then I guess by that criteria, ours aren't successful.....
>>
>>
>>>Steve
>>
>>>PS
>>>I would like to know because i am developing a strategic plan for my
>>>school soon and i thought that it would be interesting to gather some
>>>ideas before working with my school community to get started.
>>
>>Keep in mind that this is the Usenet - which means there are people from
>>all walks of life (not all are teachers) participating here and from all
>>sorts of places (the US mainly). I'm in the central part of Texas.
>>
>>Martin
>
>
> It is interesting to see the differences in the systems. We in
> Victoria and I dare say Australia, have a system where by the
> principal and school council work together to implement big picture
> plans.

Here, in the US - each of the 50 states has it's own public education
system and each of those is divided up into separate local districts.

Texas for instance has many....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_school_districts

> The staff and school community are consulted about yearly goals
> and priority spending.

> The teachers also have the responsibility of
> managing curriculum areas including the budgets.

Ah, I remember a time when that was the case here. But there have been
changes in the administration and that is no longer the case.

> parents are welcomed
> into schools. It is not uncommon to have a few parents each day wander
> into the staff room and make themselves a coffee while waiting for
> their kids to be dismissed or even in the morning after school
> starts.

Here, they first need to stop at the front office and present a photo id
for a security check - and even then they wouldn't be allowed to roam
unescorted.

>This adds a positive atmosphere toth school. Parents chat
> freely with teachers before and after school, and not always about the
> kids.

Hmm, the high school were I was teaching has about 2,600+ students
scattered across two campuses. Heck, even the teachers don't have time
or opportunity to chat with each other.

> obviously, there are different degrees of this evident in different
> schools, but on a whole it is a common situation. The Victorian
> education department is renowned around the world for its
> transformational change. I believe that this arrangement in schools is
> imparitive for a school to function smoothly and for everyone to have
> collective ownership of the school and student issues.

School systems are what people / governments make of them. There are
some really great ones here, and some that are not so great.

Martin

>
> Steve
> http://groups.google.com/group/principals-desk

teachrmama · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 415

"Rowley" wrote in message $J41.10827@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net...
>
>
> smilverton@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Feb 25, 12:11 pm, Rowley wrote:
>>
>>>smilver...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Feb 25, 11:11 am, Rowley wrote:
>>>
>>>>>smilver...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>thought it would be interesting to ask this question as it seems that
>>>>>>the answer would be different depending on which side of the fence you
>>>>>>are standing on. I suspect that the criteria developed by the parent
>>>>>>and student body would be considerably different in some respects to
>>>>>>that of a teacher.
>>>
>>>>>You just named three groups (parents, students, and teachers) who
>>>>>really
>>>>>don't have all that much input in how schools operate.
>>>
>>>>>>On the same hand i would also expect some
>>>>>>crossover. What do you think makes a successful school?
>>>
>>>>>Who wants to know and why?
>>>
>>>>>Martin
>>>
>>>>Hi Martin
>>>>i disagree.
>>>
>>>Feel free to do so.
>>>
>>>
>>>>These groups are the stakeholders of a school.
>>>
>>>They might be stakeholders, but IMO they are non-voting stakeholders.
>>>Around these parts, the school board, superintendent, and campus
>>>principals & administrators determine how things work (or don't work).
>>>
>>>
>>>>They set
>>>>the overall tone, atmosphere and culture.
>>>
>>>Which can cause all sorts of problems if that tone is in conflict with
>>>what the PTB (powers-that-be) has deemed appropriate.
>>>
>>>
>>>>A principal merely guides
>>>>and directs the community.
>>>
>>>Around here, the community pretty much ignores the school and about the
>>>only participating is their paying the local taxes that fund it. Some
>>>parents do attempt to participate to some extent, but that gradually
>>>tapers off when their kids enter high school.
>>>
>>>
>>>>If the community do not have a feeling of
>>>>ownership and input, then the school will not succeed.
>>>
>>>Then I guess by that criteria, ours aren't successful.....
>>>
>>>
>>>>Steve
>>>
>>>>PS
>>>>I would like to know because i am developing a strategic plan for my
>>>>school soon and i thought that it would be interesting to gather some
>>>>ideas before working with my school community to get started.
>>>
>>>Keep in mind that this is the Usenet - which means there are people from
>>>all walks of life (not all are teachers) participating here and from all
>>>sorts of places (the US mainly). I'm in the central part of Texas.
>>>
>>>Martin
>>
>>
>> It is interesting to see the differences in the systems. We in
>> Victoria and I dare say Australia, have a system where by the
>> principal and school council work together to implement big picture
>> plans.
>
> Here, in the US - each of the 50 states has it's own public education
> system and each of those is divided up into separate local districts.
>
> Texas for instance has many....
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_school_districts
>
>> The staff and school community are consulted about yearly goals
>> and priority spending.
>
>> The teachers also have the responsibility of
>> managing curriculum areas including the budgets.
>
> Ah, I remember a time when that was the case here. But there have been
> changes in the administration and that is no longer the case.
>
>> parents are welcomed
>> into schools. It is not uncommon to have a few parents each day wander
>> into the staff room and make themselves a coffee while waiting for
>> their kids to be dismissed or even in the morning after school
>> starts.
>
> Here, they first need to stop at the front office and present a photo id
> for a security check - and even then they wouldn't be allowed to roam
> unescorted.

When I first started teacing where I am now, there was a core group of
parents who spent many hours helping in the classrooms. They were welcome
in the staff room for coffee and whatever goodies might be available and to
chat with whoever else might be in there. Then administration got a bee in
their bonnet about the staff room being sacrosanct, and only for staff--no
more parents allowed. If they wanted a cup of coffee, a separate pot would
be set up in the copy room--and they were not to hang around and talk any
more. The reasons given were "issues of privacy" and "teachers need to be
able to vent without parents around." None of the teachers agreed, but the
administration put it into force anyway. The core of parent volunteers
dried up, and we rarely have parents in the classrooms any more.

We do have a committee of parents and teachers that are supposed to review
the needs and issues of the school, but the principal uses it more as a
rubber stamp than as a real committee with real power.

>
>>This adds a positive atmosphere toth school. Parents chat
>> freely with teachers before and after school, and not always about the
>> kids.
>
> Hmm, the high school were I was teaching has about 2,600+ students
> scattered across two campuses. Heck, even the teachers don't have time or
> opportunity to chat with each other.
>
>> obviously, there are different degrees of this evident in different
>> schools, but on a whole it is a common situation. The Victorian
>> education department is renowned around the world for its
>> transformational change. I believe that this arrangement in schools is
>> imparitive for a school to function smoothly and for everyone to have
>> collective ownership of the school and student issues.
>
> School systems are what people / governments make of them. There are some
> really great ones here, and some that are not so great.

I agree with you.

Bob LeChevalier · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 6131

"smilverton@gmail.com" wrote:
>> You just named three groups (parents, students, and teachers) who really
>> don't have all that much input in how schools operate.

>i disagree. These groups are the stakeholders of a school. They set
>the overall tone, atmosphere and culture.

I would argue that the administration does that.

>A principal merely guides and directs the community.

The principal does what the administration tells him to do, or he
doesn't remain the principal.

>If the community do not have a feeling of
>ownership and input, then the school will not succeed.

You just added in a new fifth element (besides parents, students,
teachers, and administration) - the community. In the typical
community, only around 1/4 of the households have kids in school. But
the other 3/4 pay taxes to support the school, and help provide the
environment for the school. The community is the group that DOES own
the school, and anyone else getting a feeling of ownership that does
not come from being part of that larger community is being played
false.

>I would like to know because i am developing a strategic plan for my
>school soon and i thought that it would be interesting to gather some
>ideas before working with my school community to get started.

Why don't you work with the entire community?

lojbab

toto · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 2069

On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 20:07:22 -0600, "stevericks"
wrote:

>If you haven't seen the short ( 7 min) video-Shift Happens -or if your
>faculty is unaware of it, then showing it might be a good way to get your
>planning started. That is probably what I would do.

I looked that one up. I had already seen it, but I had not seen this
one. Very interesting ideas in this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEFKfXiCbLw

--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

Rowley · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 499

I took the time to load that - on dialup - thought it was pretty good,
I've seen a lot of that information before - just not in a slide show
like that. Would email the link to some of my former teacher buddies,
but YouTube is blocked where they are....

Thanks for the link.

Martin

toto wrote:

> On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 20:07:22 -0600, "stevericks"
> wrote:
>
>
>>If you haven't seen the short ( 7 min) video-Shift Happens -or if your
>>faculty is unaware of it, then showing it might be a good way to get your
>>planning started. That is probably what I would do.
>
>
> I looked that one up. I had already seen it, but I had not seen this
> one. Very interesting ideas in this.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEFKfXiCbLw
>
>

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