Question about getting paid ...

Jeremy Russell · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 3

Hi, trainers ... has anyone had a problem getting paid after a class
that didn't go so well?

Briefly, I agreed to deliver a three day class, using third party
materials, that turned out to be planned for a four day period (as a
minimum). The materials were clearly written for presentation only by
the author - as in fairness, are my own - however, I don't sell my
materials for other trainers to use!

I did offer to visit the client prior to the class to set up the
software (minimum of 30 mins x 10 systems); this was declined on cost
grounds. On arrival, there was no software set up, so the first
morning was spent doing that, whilst students were waiting and
whining.

There's a long catalog of other issues (improperly qualified students,
failing hardware, lack of labs and just not enough time) - the upshot
is that the training company claim to have given their students a full
refund and therefore they don't want to pay me. How would you handle
that?

Clearly, I've been screwed, as has the agency involved. I'm prepared
to work for them again - on a cash with order basis - and at double
rates. The technical area in which I work is not filled with
qualified instructors and therefore I can hopefully give as good as I
got!

Cheers,

JR

Archived from group: uk>comp>training

Adrian W · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 1

What were the terms of yout contract?

What were the outlined expectations of both yourself and your client?

If they specified, that they would provide venue, facilities, attendees
at a certain level and then clearly didn't you might have something to
go on. If you can then prove you have with tried to "reasonably" inform
them of the problems encountered with venue, facilities, attendees,
IMHO I would have thought you have legal grounds for claiming your
fee either form your agency or direct from the client (although there
may be some issues of subcontracting here which may cloud the issue)

Ade

Jeremy Russell wrote:
> Hi, trainers ... has anyone had a problem getting paid after a class
> that didn't go so well?
>
> Briefly, I agreed to deliver a three day class, using third party
> materials, that turned out to be planned for a four day period (as a
> minimum). The materials were clearly written for presentation only by
> the author - as in fairness, are my own - however, I don't sell my
> materials for other trainers to use!
>
> I did offer to visit the client prior to the class to set up the
> software (minimum of 30 mins x 10 systems); this was declined on cost
> grounds. On arrival, there was no software set up, so the first
> morning was spent doing that, whilst students were waiting and
> whining.
>
> There's a long catalog of other issues (improperly qualified students,
> failing hardware, lack of labs and just not enough time) - the upshot
> is that the training company claim to have given their students a full
> refund and therefore they don't want to pay me. How would you handle
> that?
>
> Clearly, I've been screwed, as has the agency involved. I'm prepared
> to work for them again - on a cash with order basis - and at double
> rates. The technical area in which I work is not filled with
> qualified instructors and therefore I can hopefully give as good as I
> got!
>
> Cheers,
>
> JR

Jeremy Russell · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 3

Cheers, Ade.

I'm in the unfortunate position where I don't have that kind of info
in my contract, not that I have signed contracts with the majority of
my clients. There are terms and conditions on my website and wording
on my invoices that implies acceptance of those T's and C's. Since
I've not experienced this type of occurence - in five years of
operating the way I do - I've been foolishly lax and complacent in
getting a signed agreement. That's gonna change!

In principle, I was contracted to teach a class with supplied
materials, using supplied equipment to supplied students. I have
email files from the previous delivery of this class, stating that
there were no workable labs, that the software wasn't installed
correctly and that the timescale was too short. Despite that, they
hired me again for the same class and duration and did exactly the
same to me.

I should have learnt from event #1!

However, now I have learnt, albeit an expensive lesson - I am
rewriting my terms and conditions to make it clear that the equipment
setup is carried out beforehand, that any provided courseware and lab
files are of suitable quality and that delegates are properly
qualified to attend a class (all issues that occurred during the class
in question).

Now, where's that horse bolted to? I *knew* I should be shutting that
stable door!

Cheers,

JR

On Wed, 16 May 2007 11:17:25 +0100, Adrian W
wrote:

>What were the terms of yout contract?
>
>What were the outlined expectations of both yourself and your client?
>
>If they specified, that they would provide venue, facilities, attendees
>at a certain level and then clearly didn't you might have something to
>go on. If you can then prove you have with tried to "reasonably" inform
> them of the problems encountered with venue, facilities, attendees,
>IMHO I would have thought you have legal grounds for claiming your
>fee either form your agency or direct from the client (although there
>may be some issues of subcontracting here which may cloud the issue)
>
>Ade
>
>Jeremy Russell wrote:
>> Hi, trainers ... has anyone had a problem getting paid after a class
>> that didn't go so well?
>>
>> Briefly, I agreed to deliver a three day class, using third party
>> materials, that turned out to be planned for a four day period (as a
>> minimum). The materials were clearly written for presentation only by
>> the author - as in fairness, are my own - however, I don't sell my
>> materials for other trainers to use!
>>
>> I did offer to visit the client prior to the class to set up the
>> software (minimum of 30 mins x 10 systems); this was declined on cost
>> grounds. On arrival, there was no software set up, so the first
>> morning was spent doing that, whilst students were waiting and
>> whining.
>>
>> There's a long catalog of other issues (improperly qualified students,
>> failing hardware, lack of labs and just not enough time) - the upshot
>> is that the training company claim to have given their students a full
>> refund and therefore they don't want to pay me. How would you handle
>> that?
>>
>> Clearly, I've been screwed, as has the agency involved. I'm prepared
>> to work for them again - on a cash with order basis - and at double
>> rates. The technical area in which I work is not filled with
>> qualified instructors and therefore I can hopefully give as good as I
>> got!
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> JR
>

Thomas Lee · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 22

In message , Jeremy Russell
writes
>Hi, trainers ... has anyone had a problem getting paid after a class
>that didn't go so well?

Not really but I've been lucky!
..
>I did offer to visit the client prior to the class to set up the
>software (minimum of 30 mins x 10 systems); this was declined on cost
>grounds.

Who declined? The customer of the broker?

> On arrival, there was no software set up, so the first
>morning was spent doing that, whilst students were waiting and
>whining.

Been there done that. I tend to use this as a learning opportunity...
>
>There's a long catalog of other issues (improperly qualified students,
>failing hardware, lack of labs and just not enough time) - the upshot
>is that the training company claim to have given their students a full
>refund and therefore they don't want to pay me. How would you handle
>that?

I'd look at what my contract says. You did have a contract, didn't you??

>Clearly, I've been screwed, as has the agency involved.

I'd bet that the agency had little alternative.

> I'm prepared
>to work for them again - on a cash with order basis - and at double
>rates.

Depends on rate that means of course. The problem is, that having run a
bad class, they may not want to use you again at any rate. Sad

> The technical area in which I work is not filled with
>qualified instructors and therefore I can hopefully give as good as I
>got!

Lucky you!!

Thomas

--
Thomas Lee
(tfl@psp.co.uk)

Jeremy Russell · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 3

On Wed, 16 May 2007 14:52:05 +0100, Thomas Lee wrote:

>Jeremy Russell writes
>>Hi, trainers ... has anyone had a problem getting paid after a class
>>that didn't go so well?
>
>Not really but I've been lucky!

Then ... lucky you too!

>>I did offer to visit the client prior to the class to set up the
>>software (minimum of 30 mins x 10 systems); this was declined on cost
>>grounds.
>
>Who declined? The customer of the broker?

I dealt directly with the broker - I'm guessing the customer; it's in
the broker's interest to try and sell the extra time, surely - this
broker works on a percentage commission.
>
>> On arrival, there was no software set up, so the first
>>morning was spent doing that, whilst students were waiting and
>>whining.
>
>Been there done that. I tend to use this as a learning opportunity...

For me or for the students? I meant that seriously - for this
particular software product, there's a complex installation procedure,
which I do teach and use as a lab on a basic class. This wasn't a
basic class however and as it transpired, the class was presented on
Windows and over 50% of the delegates were UNIX users and had no
practical clue about Windows, 'cmd', starting/stopping windows
services etc.

>>There's a long catalog of other issues (improperly qualified students,
>>failing hardware, lack of labs and just not enough time) - the upshot
>>is that the training company claim to have given their students a full
>>refund and therefore they don't want to pay me. How would you handle
>>that?
>
>I'd look at what my contract says. You did have a contract, didn't you??

OK; not really. I do have terms and conditions but with a few
exceptions, I've been lax in getting them signed in the past. That's
gonna change - I've already added some words to the document and I'm
going to ask for them to be signed for every job in the future.

As an experienced freelancer, do you get a signed copy of your own T's
and C's for *each* job you do, whatever the duration?

>>Clearly, I've been screwed, as has the agency involved.
>
>I'd bet that the agency had little alternative.

Nope, I don't think so. What aggravates me is that with a 100%
refund, the training company has taken no responsibility for the
fiasco.

>> I'm prepared
>>to work for them again - on a cash with order basis - and at double
>>rates.
>
>Depends on rate that means of course. The problem is, that having run a
>bad class, they may not want to use you again at any rate. Sad

I know that; when the issue first arose, I offered to redeliver a
follow-up class, to the same students, at a zero rate, *provided* they
paid for the class in question. Financially, it would have worked out
the same *and* the students would have received some additional
benefit. I thought that was fair to all concerned. But now, I'm just
mad.

Jeremy

Alec Ross · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 1

In message , Jeremy Russell
writes
>Hi, trainers ... has anyone had a problem getting paid after a class
>that didn't go so well?
>
....
You wouldn't like to give even a hint as to those involved?

Regards,

A
--
Alec Ross, A-Train http://www.a-train.co.uk
+44 (0)1689 829163 +44 (0)7710 656955 (m)
A Ross Computing Services (Arcs) Ltd.
30 Cathcart Drive, Orpington, KENT, BR6 8BX UK

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