Australian Universitys' financial make up and operation

Parry · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 9

Hi,

In the light of the current national debate and confusions about
rising higher education costs for all students in australia, whether
local HECS, PELS or overseas, I just want to ask...where the hell is
all the money going man!?!

Australian students are an unhappy lot with international full-fee
paying taking away their share of seats and there seems to be rising
hostility towards these people coming for a better education from
countries where they don't have the opportunity to pursue...AND having
to pay a HUGE amount of money for quality education. They can afford
it so it's good for them.

The thing that troubles me is that what do these huge unis like
Monash, La Trobe, QUT, Macquarie and all DO with all the money they
get from overseas students? It seems that they also don't get funding
fromt their own governments and that's probably why they charge
overseas students such obscene amounts of money. Now granted that, how
does it help the students in any way, apart from say infrastructural
changes and additions, in terms of finanical aid and scholarships? The
only one who seem to be giving schols is the government!

Compare this to the American universities, who although they charge a
lot of tuition do also provide potential students, local OR
international reasonable and at times hefty financial aid packages.
What stops Aussie unis from doing the same? I dont reckon ALL the
money they earn from full fee paying students, both local and
international goes towards upkeep, maintenance and paying the
professors!

What do people think about this? Can Aussie unis come up with more
financial aid options for all students? What about like university
work ... working off one's tution? Research assistantships, teacher's
assistantships, fellowships, the works? Why is it not feasible in
Australia?..The Americans are doing it?...Why don't we too...we ALWAYS
do what they do, why not now?!

Archived from group: aus>education

Ernest · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 1

On 3 Jun 2004 05:45:54 -0700, parikshitkshirsagar@hotmail.com (Parry)
wrote:

>Hi,
>
>In the light of the current national debate and confusions about
>rising higher education costs for all students in australia, whether
>local HECS, PELS or overseas, I just want to ask...where the hell is
>all the money going man!?!
>
>Australian students are an unhappy lot with international full-fee
>paying taking away their share of seats and there seems to be rising
>hostility towards these people coming for a better education from
>countries where they don't have the opportunity to pursue...AND having
>to pay a HUGE amount of money for quality education. They can afford
>it so it's good for them.
>
>The thing that troubles me is that what do these huge unis like
>Monash, La Trobe, QUT, Macquarie and all DO with all the money they
>get from overseas students? It seems that they also don't get funding
>fromt their own governments and that's probably why they charge
>overseas students such obscene amounts of money. Now granted that, how
>does it help the students in any way, apart from say infrastructural
>changes and additions, in terms of finanical aid and scholarships? The
>only one who seem to be giving schols is the government!
>
>Compare this to the American universities, who although they charge a
>lot of tuition do also provide potential students, local OR
>international reasonable and at times hefty financial aid packages.
>What stops Aussie unis from doing the same? I dont reckon ALL the
>money they earn from full fee paying students, both local and
>international goes towards upkeep, maintenance and paying the
>professors!
>
>What do people think about this? Can Aussie unis come up with more
>financial aid options for all students? What about like university
>work ... working off one's tution? Research assistantships, teacher's
>assistantships, fellowships, the works? Why is it not feasible in
>Australia?..The Americans are doing it?...Why don't we too...we ALWAYS
>do what they do, why not now?!

The fees paid by full fee paying students are more than the
actual cost of the course delivery and they use that to help
offset other costs against Aust students.

But your main bitch about business support for unis is very
valid but a waste of time now.

Go back about 20 years and the unis got very little money
from the commonwealth govt, the students paid either
full fees or had scholarships, many of which were funded
by the federal govt. Many more funded by various businesses
and industry bodies, all for full fees. Businesses used to get
advantages out of doing this in that they got tax write offs
and in many cases the graduate usually worked for them
for 3 years or so after completion of course.

Then Bob Hawke declared that Uni education was no available
for all and told the businesses that they were no longer wanted
in supporting unis and stopped many of the fiscal advantages
that a business got by supporting a uni or scholarship.

Since the govt was now funding the unis direct the educ dept
introduces a load of paperwork needed to 'help' properly
calculate and manage the govt funding, thus many more
admin staff were now needed and had to be funded from the
fee incomes.

Another important factor in uni expenditure is that the
uni senior managers are professors etc not administrative
types and thus rarely have very good admin and management
skills, thus leading to higher operating costs due to lack
of knowledge and skill in this area.

Why can't we do it, because that is a capitalist education
system and any work towards that is blocked by the ALP
and Democrats on idealogical grounds. And mainly
because it USED to work before higher education got
reworked by Hawke.

Deadly Ernest

@bywater.net.au

(my new keyboard, with small keys,
accepts full responsibility for all
typographical and spelling errors)

Hunter1 · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 2

Rod Speed wrote:

> Thats arguable with some courses and the total
> cost of spruiking to those student's parents etc.

Wouldn't agree where I work, a big part of our income (as
opposed to loss on many of the courses we run because we
need people skilled in them but run at a loss because the
resources required cost a hell of a lot more than the fees
brought in) comes from international students who are almost
exclusively interested in the low-cost-to-run industries
such as IT, Business, Hospitality etc.etc. as opposed to
Mechanics, Aviation, Building trades etc.etc.etc which cost
a fortune to run but are sorely needed and so as part of our
mandate are run despite the fact everything is falling apart
due to the poor funding from the govt.

With our current labor state govt we seem to be depending
more than ever on the money flooding in from the
international students, but then that's probly why we get
SFA from said govt (who claimed they were going to cull high
level staff and leave the low levels alone to do the job but
instead offered redundancies to as many low level staff as
possible and hired many more high level staff, never had
this many directors before in my memory), spose they can
always claim we're doing well on the backs of foreign
students that are paying the way for what little we get now.
Roll on state election, perhaps we'll stop getting all our
Internationals deciding to go to other countries because
they're lucky if they can even get a working computer in a
classroom charging full fees for such under our current
govt, back under Liberal we were throwing tier one equipment
into our rooms and had the staff to do it.

Rod Speed · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 8

Hunter1 wrote in message$1@funnel.arach.net.au...
> Rod Speed wrote

>>> The fees paid by full fee paying students are
>>> more than the actual cost of the course delivery

>> Thats arguable with some courses and the total
>> cost of spruiking to those student's parents etc.

> Wouldn't agree where I work,

But its still arguable with the total cost of
the administrators and redundancys etc.

> a big part of our income (as opposed to loss on many
> of the courses we run because we need people skilled
> in them but run at a loss because the resources required
> cost a hell of a lot more than the fees brought in) comes
> from international students who are almost exclusively
> interested in the low-cost-to-run industries such as IT,
> Business, Hospitality etc.etc. as opposed to Mechanics,
> Aviation, Building trades etc.etc.etc which cost a fortune
> to run but are sorely needed and so as part of our
> mandate are run despite the fact everything is falling
> apart due to the poor funding from the govt.

Sure but you are essentially ignoring the vast amount
of money pissed against the wall on the level of admin
above what can be allocated to particular courses.

Quite a bit of that is done to spruik
to those overseas student's parents.

> With our current labor state govt we seem to be depending
> more than ever on the money flooding in from the
> international students, but then that's probly why we get
> SFA from said govt (who claimed they were going to cull
> high level staff and leave the low levels alone to do the job
> but instead offered redundancies to as many low level
> staff as possible and hired many more high level staff,
> never had this many directors before in my memory),

And most of those extras were hired to
spruik to those overseas student's parents.

> spose they can always claim we're doing
> well on the backs of foreign students that
> are paying the way for what little we get now.

> Roll on state election, perhaps we'll stop getting all our
> Internationals deciding to go to other countries because
> they're lucky if they can even get a working computer in a
> classroom charging full fees for such under our current govt,
> back under Liberal we were throwing tier one equipment
> into our rooms and had the staff to do it.

Hanrahan · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 1

On 3 Jun 2004 05:45:54 -0700, parikshitkshirsagar@hotmail.com (Parry)
wrote:

>Hi,
>
>In the light of the current national debate and confusions about
>rising higher education costs for all students in australia, whether
>local HECS, PELS or overseas, I just want to ask...where the hell is
>all the money going man!?!
>
>Australian students are an unhappy lot with international full-fee
>paying taking away their share of seats and there seems to be rising
>hostility towards these people coming for a better education from
>countries where they don't have the opportunity to pursue...AND having
>to pay a HUGE amount of money for quality education. They can afford
>it so it's good for them.
>
>The thing that troubles me is that what do these huge unis like
>Monash, La Trobe, QUT, Macquarie and all DO with all the money they
>get from overseas students? It seems that they also don't get funding
>fromt their own governments and that's probably why they charge
>overseas students such obscene amounts of money. Now granted that, how
>does it help the students in any way, apart from say infrastructural
>changes and additions, in terms of finanical aid and scholarships? The
>only one who seem to be giving schols is the government!
>
>Compare this to the American universities, who although they charge a
>lot of tuition do also provide potential students, local OR
>international reasonable and at times hefty financial aid packages.
>What stops Aussie unis from doing the same? I dont reckon ALL the
>money they earn from full fee paying students, both local and
>international goes towards upkeep, maintenance and paying the
>professors!
>
>What do people think about this? Can Aussie unis come up with more
>financial aid options for all students? What about like university
>work ... working off one's tution? Research assistantships, teacher's
>assistantships, fellowships, the works? Why is it not feasible in
>Australia?..The Americans are doing it?...Why don't we too...we ALWAYS
>do what they do, why not now?!

The context is a highly regulated one.

Firstly, the tendering process for government funds to educate is
restricted.

Secondly, entrance to other restricted activity post education is
restricted.

This means that inefficiencies in the allocation of resources emerge -
generally.

Weighed up against that is that inside protection fat is accumulated
which is then available for public good activity.

It's the oldest argument on earth.

To take a position on the matter I think you need to see where you lie
on these questions:

1. Are educational resources inherently scarce?
2. Are the results of educational services quality sensitive?
3. Is the educational market one in which monopoly positions will
eventuate?

Parry · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 9

Hanrahan wrote in message news:...
> On 3 Jun 2004 05:45:54 -0700, parikshitkshirsagar@hotmail.com (Parry)
> wrote:
>
> >Hi,
> >
> >In the light of the current national debate and confusions about
> >rising higher education costs for all students in australia, whether
> >local HECS, PELS or overseas, I just want to ask...where the hell is
> >all the money going man!?!
> >
> >Australian students are an unhappy lot with international full-fee
> >paying taking away their share of seats and there seems to be rising
> >hostility towards these people coming for a better education from
> >countries where they don't have the opportunity to pursue...AND having
> >to pay a HUGE amount of money for quality education. They can afford
> >it so it's good for them.
> >
> >The thing that troubles me is that what do these huge unis like
> >Monash, La Trobe, QUT, Macquarie and all DO with all the money they
> >get from overseas students? It seems that they also don't get funding
> >fromt their own governments and that's probably why they charge
> >overseas students such obscene amounts of money. Now granted that, how
> >does it help the students in any way, apart from say infrastructural
> >changes and additions, in terms of finanical aid and scholarships? The
> >only one who seem to be giving schols is the government!
> >
> >Compare this to the American universities, who although they charge a
> >lot of tuition do also provide potential students, local OR
> >international reasonable and at times hefty financial aid packages.
> >What stops Aussie unis from doing the same? I dont reckon ALL the
> >money they earn from full fee paying students, both local and
> >international goes towards upkeep, maintenance and paying the
> >professors!
> >
> >What do people think about this? Can Aussie unis come up with more
> >financial aid options for all students? What about like university
> >work ... working off one's tution? Research assistantships, teacher's
> >assistantships, fellowships, the works? Why is it not feasible in
> >Australia?..The Americans are doing it?...Why don't we too...we ALWAYS
> >do what they do, why not now?!
>
> The context is a highly regulated one.
>
> Firstly, the tendering process for government funds to educate is
> restricted.
>
> Secondly, entrance to other restricted activity post education is
> restricted.
>
> This means that inefficiencies in the allocation of resources emerge -
> generally.
>
> Weighed up against that is that inside protection fat is accumulated
> which is then available for public good activity.
>
> It's the oldest argument on earth.
>
> To take a position on the matter I think you need to see where you lie
> on these questions:
>
> 1. Are educational resources inherently scarce?
Don't think so..with the variety of experiences and knowledges people
have and which become institutionalised, there ought not to be any
"scarcity" in the resource itself...in its provision maybe, but in
itself, dont think so.

> 2. Are the results of educational services quality sensitive?
Yeah to a degree and not to another. Depends on what the pririties of
the educator and the educatee are so I'd say it's relative as are most
things in life.. (its a far too simplistic way of thinking but its one
way out of innumerable)

> 3. Is the educational market one in which monopoly positions will
> eventuate?

In a sense this has been happening for a long time..what with all the
"big" and "established" unis..the Harvards, Yales, Oxfords et al. I
don't know if I have sufficient knowledge to give an answer to this
one though..who's monopolies? There can be multivariated monopolies
operating in variate spheres...

Rod Pace · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 1

Some silly fool known as

"Denis Wright" wrote in message@posting.google.com...
just the same puerile rubbish you'd expect.

Try harder child.

You may be able to wow someone, sometime.

Rod Pace · Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 1

Some silly fool known as
"Denis Wright" wrote in message@posting.google.com...
just the same puerile rubbish you'd expect.

Try harder child.

You may be able to wow someone, sometime.